Fender Custom Shop

Gear
21

Very interesting topic indeed.

I have always felt that a lot of the major manufacturers pricing is based on what the market will bear ie. charge as much as possible, regardless of whether the price is justifiable.

Back in the stone age schools and colleges used to teach proper economics practices which used to have a rule of thumb that manufacturers should have an approx. profit margin of 30% over their total manufacturing costs.

Of course we also used to have reading, math, spelling cursive writing and grammar classes every day. Now we have calculators so a a lot of math principles/skills are considered unnecessary to learn, we have computerized spell checking so no need to learn to spell anything correctly, and cursive writing. The average young person’s attitude today is "I use a phone/tablet/laptop/desktop and a printer and I can accomplish everything with them. When I ask people what they do when their battery runs out, or the hydro fails. The usual answer is “I use a power bank or backup power supply”. And if I ask what do you do if the power goes out for a month and you cannot charge your powerbank or UPS the usual answer is “That won’t happen”.
I think most of us have experienced going into a bank and been told that their account could not be updated until the computers are back up and running.

I honestly believe that the easiest way to bring down any society is high technology.
Basics in math such as Geometry, Trigonometry, and the use of Logarithms are not taught anymore in the schools. Sad but true.

How this manifests itself in our corner of the Music world is people feeling they cannot change their own Guitar/Bass strings, feeling they cannot do their own Guitar/Bass setups and finally struggling with music theory because they do not have basic math skills.

Back on topic:
I also think that, like so many have stated already, as long as you are happy with your purchase and it leads you to want to pick up that instrument to play more the price should be the final consideration in your decision making process.
Of course this leads back into the attitude of the manufacturers charging what the market will pay whether it is fair or not. Unfortunately.

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22

I’d say when it comes to basses, it is completely fair to charge what the market will pay. Basses are a luxury. Now, if we are talking about medical products, that’s much trickier territory, but I won’t take everyone down that rabbit hole. :slight_smile:

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23

Three additional points come to mind. I am digging this convo BTW, very interesting.

  1. Value (perceived or real)
    I called Fender and had a long long talk with a rep for about an hour before buying (yes, I do know its a salesperson and their job is to sell me on things. That said I am an engineer and generally challange any marketeer’s notion of anything unless it makes sense to me). Part of what you are getting is exclusivity. And what I bought is not even the upper tier of exclusivity of a Masterbuilt CS bass, which are 2x and up more even so (these are for the very rich and the wealthy musicians, etc).

Value drivers, beyond hand made in USA were the quarter sawn neck, the exclusive handwound type of pickup, the hand selected body wood as ‘best of the bunch’ and of course the relic-ing. These are all things that drive cost. Non-mass produced or purchased things by manufacturers cost much more than just the cost of the materials and labor. Its a pain in the arse for the manufacturing system as a whole to even source ‘one/few offs’. Try building a house with a builder that knocks out lots of very similar holmes. Why does every change cost so much? Becuase he has a pile of materials bought in bulk for an even better price that allows him to build 20 homes, not just yours. Your hardwood molding that you want also costs him greif, so you are going to pay for that too. It’s just the way of manufacturing today.

So do all theses value driveers / differentiators justify the cost? If you buy one, the answer is clearly yes. If you can’t fathom why someone would pay for any of them…then no.

#2 - Malcom Gladwell’s Trading Up Philosophy (at least I think it was him)
On another thread I started folks were commenting that instead of buying an $84 prewired circuit you can buy the components for around $10 max. I can solder (I am actually and electrical engineer) but I also have the ability to ‘trade up’ for things when i feel like they add value, for me.

The ‘trading up’ philosophy can be exemplified like this… @chris6 drives his Mercedes to IKEA and buys all his furniture there. Or I drive my Range Rover (I don’t have one, but I did) to Costco or Walmart to buy the cheapest toilet paper he can find. Why? We both can afford these other things wtih better quality, but we trade down for some things we don’t value and trade up on things that are meaningful to us. Everyone does this to different extents, and the logic in each choice, well, isn’t logic, its rationalization. And completely normal.

My music room is filled with IKEA furniture from end to end. My desk chair is a cheap Amazon one. I was scouring the internet for hipshot tuners that cost $10 less each because I wasn’t paying the rediculous price of their webstore vs. Amazon (who are sold out) etc. I have a cousin that goes to Grand Cayman every single year to a luxury hotel, kids and all, drives Land Rovers and Mercedes, but lives in a very modest house. We go on road trip vacas, or fly when I have points from work, I drive a Honda. I think she is nuts. She thinks I am nuts. We probably both are.
Trading up, its a thing.

  1. In all instruments and accessories, no matter what type, you hear the same thing… “buy the best gear you can afford”.

When I bought my first bass and amp, just over a year ago, I took Josh’s advice and wanted the “best cheapest” of each I could buy. I could afford more, but didn’t want to make the investment as others have commented. Bass for me was a side thing for when I got tired of playing sax, or it was later at night and I still wanted to be musical (and I wanted a cheaper musical hobby, sax is a VERY expensive endevor all around, an overhaul is $1200-2000 depending on horn and how good of a job you want, most of my basses cost less than my sax mouthpieces, let alone the horns, not bragging, just how it is, I thank goodness that I am not a violinist or flautist, they have it even worse). Well, I love bass a lot more than a thought and you all know how the rest goes.

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24

Oh no need to apologize, I don’t offend easy, but I am very honest and open.
There is a difference, at least to me.

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25

I cannot agree with that. To me if a manufacturer has a 400% profit margin over his total manufacturing costs that is a rip-off.

@JT

Not sure what you mean by this.
Are you saying the Bass is a luxury to a band setting?

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26

Another thing that stuck with me… in the early 80’s while in high school, I had two jobs in the lcoal mall, at two women’s clothing stores directly across from each other. I unpacked stock and cleaned, set up displays, etc. (Don’t judge, I ALWAYS had something do to on the weekend nights…spoiler alert…girls work at women’s clothing stores!)
Anyway, I remember to this day one store’s markups were 30%, the store across the hall, 100-150%. I got a 20% family discount at one, and a 50% family discount at the other.
Obviously, one was a higher end brand than the other.

Was one worth more? Depends on if you liked the clothes in one vs the other and if you could afford it. Doesn’t it really come down to just this?

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Good one, Gio . . . :rofl:

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28

US furniture manufacturers run on a 400-500% markup.
Jewelry…insane markup.

Depends on industry and setup etc.
Its a known thing in US that you can drive to North Carolina and buy direct and save $1000s if you want to cut out the rest of the chain. Every time something changes hands, it costs more, everyone needs their slice.

Medical equip - @JT, correct, another story. This is all just lawyers and liability and insurance and CYA piled atop of crazy profit margins

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29

What I mean by “basses are a luxury” is simply that we don’t need them to survive or live a healthy life. They are a pleasure, not a need.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on what are fair margins. If people are willing to pay it, it is fair in my world. Such is the nature of business.

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30

I did give that idea a LOT of thought, @John_E . . . I researched pickups and tuners and bridges, watched YT videos on how to upgrade, etc. ad nauseam.

But due to my particular personal circumstances, I just went for the Ultra . . . it’s also an active/passive bass and I never had one of those before.

That being said, I still might upgrade the Squier a bit . . . :slight_smile: . . . GMTA

Cheers
Joe

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@John_E

Maybe we all are :slightly_smiling_face:

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32

The one thing I keep wishing is that I had two identical ones and did the mods to one vs. the other. I guess I could un-retrofit if I every wanted to, but that is complex.

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33

As an American, I am proud and happy when good products are made in the US.

But that’s the key. The product has to actually be better to make me feel that way. To me the fact that something was made in the US has no intrinsic value on its own unless the product itself earns it through quality. Being made in the US can have negative value to me if the product itself is a trainwreck. It’s embarrassing to me when bad products are stamped with “Made in USA” labels.

So yes, it’s wonderful that Fender makes some high quality instruments in the USA right now. But every super shitty car Detroit cracked out in the mid '80s was also MIA. American manufacturing has gone through cycles where the US was just as capable of cranking out terrible products as anywhere else in the world.

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34

+1
That said, with so few of any instrument made in the USA anymore from a big company, I do like the fact that some are trying, and succeeding.

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35

Couldn’t agree more, the most expensive equipment I own is the one that gets used the most. Always buy what you really desire, don’t settle for cheap knockoffs.

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36

There was a fun graphic user interface study done where two mechanically and functionally identical interfaces were presented to test groups. One of the interfaces was plain and one was enhanced by an artist with pleasing color choices.

The interface with designed colors tested as easier to use even though it was functionally identical. It reduced frustration and created a more pleasant experience. This is then reflected in the user stress level.

“Intangible” doesn’t mean physically non-existent. On the scale of things that people pay for, relaxation and stress reduction rank pretty high. is it necessary or even applicable to everyone in the context of a bass, no. Is increased benefit for some an illusion, also no.

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@Noisembryo

If I had a nickle for every time I have said the the same thing I could retire…Hold on I am retired :slightly_smiling_face: :slightly_smiling_face:

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38

There’s an old saying: “You may as well start out with what you’re gonna end up with.”

I never did that, and wish I had . . . :slight_smile:

Cheers
Joe

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39

My grandpa used to say that he was way too poor to afford buying cheap stuff. Now, the corollary to that is that he was really good ad finding bargains on the good stuff.

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@Jazzbass19

So true and I don’t know why people don’t listen.
It so expensive any other way.

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