Has Fender been Surpassed?

What’s interesting to me is that, yes, there are basses and guitars with better craftsmanship than Fender now (though some are at very high price points) but the Leo Fender designs still seem to be the paradigm for nearly everyone - P, J, PJ, Stingray basses.

I certainly don’t claim some sort of amazing grasp of all types of basses, and I know there are lots and lots, but what percentage of total basses made aren’t some variant of Fender designs? In that respect, it’s hard to see Fender as being surpassed.

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I don’t think the question is “What’s the BEST guitar we can make for $200?”
The question is “What’s the most PROFITABLE guitar we can make for $200, and stay competitive with our peers at that price?”

One thing that’s amazing to me is that the quality of cheap guitars now is SO MUCH BETTER than it was 20 or 30 years ago. It’s hard to even compare. So while some components might be bad, the whole thing is rarely just crap, nowadays.

It’s true, though, that some companies seem to care more about quality at all price points, and seem relentless about good design that can be manufactured a good price point. Yamaha is one of those, to my mind.

Most are just contracting out the whole build. Did you notice that, say, 30% of the pickups are pure garbage? Maybe, probably, even, but you’ve built a return model that works, and this is about scale, so roll it out the door.

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100% agree!

I had to think quite a lot about that when playing quite a few short scales for my selection process.

The only bass that seemed to be worth the price was an Ibanez EHB model, both from a technological point of view and a in terms of production value and industrial design. Unfortunately the bass was no match for my body (I’m basically a mutant).

Second was the Sire U5, in terms of production value. But it was still not perfect.

A Fender sounded good, but was kind of boring otherwise.

I hear very good things about Harley Benton nowadays, so this is my choice as of now.
Haven’t played it yet though … I am sitting on the boardwalk in front of my home now, waiting for the DHL guy to bring me a (hopefully) wonderful Harley Benton MV-4MSB.
The reviews were raving, as in: this bass is better than most basses that cost a few times more. Let’s see (hear)…

It’s basically a Fender knockoff - but better than Fender :slight_smile:

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This does not extend to musical instruments. There are some brands that are stellar (Shijie comes to mind, also SX can be good, the new one ESP bought looks promising, etc) but in general, no, Korean and Japanese made instruments are (much) higher quality than Chinese in general, and specific makers are higher quality than American or German made instruments.

I definitely believe it for consumer electronics though. They own the world there, with Korea and Japan trailing, and everyone else far behind AFAICT.

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My guess, this is only temporary. Look at their cars!

I clearly remember my first negotiations about Settop Boxes with the Chinese. Heavy smokers (like the Koreans), so we needed to schedule many breaks. They had a Yakuza feeling about them (I know, Yakuza are not Chinese and Jacuzzi is a hot tub) - which I liked a lot.
Very cinematic! Negotiations were always like the Russian Roulette scene in “The Deer Hunter”…

In every negotiation they said “yes! yes! yes!” repeatedly to all my requirements (or was it “Mau! Mau! Mau!”?).
I was pretty astouned to read the contract later, which contained none of the agreed requirements.

They were clearly not happy about me sticking to the negotiated requirements, and I was prepared for a sword fight, but they agreed to everything again, while I insisted to change the contract at the table and sign it immediately.
No price change, of course.

So, the first three batches of samples were completely different from our agreement. They not only s#cked, but were different products altogether.

Again, escalation, smoking Chinese, prepared for a sword fight.

In the end they delivered just in time with expected quality. This was the period where my hair became grey first and then seized to grow…

Nowadays, the Chinese offer great standard products, understand negotiation the “European” way … and deliver custom stuff to spec at a very good price and ALWAYS in time.

I understand from Thomann that they shared a similar experience for their Harley Benton Equipment…

PS by the way: negotiation with Americans (Motorola, Scientific Atanta/Cisco) was also terrible. No smoking though, but they were marketing driven, not driven by engineers.
Sleek talking, wonderful Powerpoints, greet diners! But basically empty and not very much to the point in terms of details. They had very much a “we bring American goodness to the world” mentality, without understanding the European “spirit” (and market).

Ah, those were the good old days :slight_smile:

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@Al1885 - Bass envy has been activated:) Nice collection! I’m feeling strangely inadequate.

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scott on sbl recently made a point we all know but hardly ever consider, how amazing it is that leo invented the p-bass nearly 70 years ago and we are still playing what is essentially the exact same instrument today. i mean, i guess this is the same with most instruments.

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yeah he does that to all of us :grin:

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Yes while not exactly the same instrument. It’s Leo and his obsession with tinkering. He’s getting direct feedback straight from the source and able to make adjustments on the next generation. Now we have an instrument that’s been tested time and time again probably over hundred subtle changes since the original ‘51.

I don’t imagine many instruments get that kind of opportunity.

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Exactly.

I sort of said this above, but we’re basically playing four versions of Leo’s designs. Precision, Jazz, PJ, Stingray. I wonder what percentage of total electric basses aren’t some version of those? 25%

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Yeah but it’s the top 25% :rofl:

(Just kidding. Sort of.)

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As long as you’re not including Steinberger in the top 25% I can see your point :sunglasses:

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dude those are amazing instruments :slight_smile:

Seriously I would want one of those over anything Leo was ever involved with at all except a Bongo. Steinbergers are outstanding, top tier instruments. There’s a reason so many pros dug them.

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I think perception of this depends heavily on genre. I think it’s weird when I see a music video / go to a show and don’t see double soap bars. I see as many headless basses as p/j/PJ style.

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Back in the day I came across this model in white at my local GC. Still kick myself I didn’t grab it. Now the price is just through the roof.

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Oh, no doubt. I’m more or less basing my opinion on what I see for sale, new, used, etc, overall. Like many here I’ll waste time better spent practicing just looking and looking at gear. As if I could buy better playing. :wink:

Certain genres will have all sorts of “Non Leo” stuff, but others? Nothing but Leo on the bass.

Tastes are funny. I look at those and think “You can have all of mine.” I’d only want one as a completist maybe, and that’s an expensive habit. Not to disparage its performance, I’m sure it’s excellent.

Well. Now I know where Kiesel got the idea for their Vader:

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For sure. You would likely hate my favorite instrument despite it being a drop dead classic, cult collector item, and major artist signature bass.

Which is kind of the thing - there’s lots of great stuff out there outside the Fender world, a lot of it gets played a lot, but there’s also Fender/Gibson dominated genres (classic rock, country, etc) where you don’t see much straying. Though mostly this is the Strat and Les Paul more than the P-Bass and EB-1.

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I’m all for a varied ecosystem of instruments, and of my two basses, one is a Leo design, and the other isn’t. So we’ll see where the next one leads me.

Maybe this? They distilled the very essence of the 1970s into an electric bass and here it is…

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