Hitting a wall during the course

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I couldn’t find a similar post to this, apologies if I missed one.

I am loving the course but have reached a point in learning and progress, that I often find to be a bit of a “wall” where I find frustration and demotivation creeping in. I often get this when learning things and I have enjoyed the rush of rapid early development, and am not heading into the area where I am looking ahead at the more complicated stuff and experience a shift from enjoying the little wins to feeling frustrated that I am not already good enough to be putting Duff McKagan out of a job. I know how daft that is an am committed to enjoying the journey, but it sometimes help to write these things down just to accept how silly it is!

I think for me I make it harder because I am keen enough to learn that I am reading into the advanced stuff that I am nowhere near. I have found it really helpful to take opportunities to look back and find that suddenly riffs I struggled with are easier, or how recognisable riffs that I learned early on can suddenly be played well without warmup.

So, questions for everyone here:

  1. At what point in the journey did you hit a wall similar to this?
  2. What kept you going to get past it?
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Hi there, @dukea!

Most people struggle with the lesson on Billie Jean, and consensus is that it’s a challenge or test, rather than a regular “small win” lesson.

What I’d do in your situation is to find a way to redefine the wall you describe into an opportunity to enjoy practising.

I tell myself “I’m working on X right now, and I’ll do it until it will help me build on it effortlessly later.”

What’s your positive story about practising, @dukea?

Cheers,
Antonio

PS: Lots of people do the course more than once, for example with a pick, or slapping, …

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I’m sure it’s normal somewhere along the way. I just started Module 7 and while I have learned a lot, I still sound awful. I sorta recorded myself on a somewhat easy tune and cringed. I have a looong way to go. Stick with it, you’ll get there!

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i find that the best way to overcome any “wall” in a course like this is to simply move forward. put whatever you are struggling with behind you, you can always come back to it later. on to the next.

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This is great advice!

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Hmmmm, you did not mention where in the course you are.

I am just finishing up Module 5, which was way, way trickier than 1-4.
While I am not at a “wall”, I am not just breezing through the videos and moving on. I need to practice the line, get the fingering right, and I still flub it from time to time.
AND we’re supposed to be recognizing and comprehending rests and repeats and slowly letting note names sink in.
And sometimes I’m still working on getting the line correct.

So from here on out it’s clearly not a Watch/Play Along With video and move along right away.

Which is to be expected, of course.
And that’s ok.

As you note: think of how far you’ve already come.
And feel free to vent here is it helps; we’ll cheer you on.
-jay

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What keeps me going is remembering the “stall” when smoking a pork shoulder, for example. Large pieces of meat stall around 155°F and take forever to break through that level. Waiting for it to reach the magical 205°F requires plenty of patience and an acceptance of the scientific reality that it’s going to happen. But when it gets there, the pulled pork that comes from it is awesome.

So, I use those memories to curb my frustration. Plus, thinking of those pulled pork sammies makes me hungry and gives my mind something else to think about. I find that mental break helpful.

But, damn, do I miss my Yoder Smoker YS640 here in France. I sold it along with my house in Flagstaff when I moved. I’m just going to have to settle for a photo.

barbecue-pork-sandwich-500x375
barbecue-pork-sandwich-500x375500×375 43.7 KB

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I think all of is who have gone through the course as actual beginners (as opposed to those who were already bass players looking to improve their technique) hit that wall at least once in the course. As some others have said, the best way to overcome it is to just keep pushing on.

Josh says all the time that the slow workout is all you need to do to “pass” a lesson, and part of that is because nothing is taught in isolation. Something you learn in today’s lesson will be reviewed and discussed again in future lessons (including probably the very next one).

Also, remember that if this was easy everyone would do it and we wouldn’t need B2B. And Duff wasn’t born knowing how to play the bass. He went through the same sort of learning struggles that you’re going through.

Lastly, take some time to recognize your progress. Go back to those early module 1 lessons where you were originally just happy to get notes coming out and see how much easier they are now. For me, recognizing that progress helped with the walls. You overcame those earlier obstacles and there’s no reason you can’t overcome the current ones (and future ones)

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Progression isn’t linear. It’s a zig zag that generally trends upwards.

I hit “walls” all the time where I feel like I’ve been making progress, and now I’m struggling with things that I thought I had down.

What I’ve realized is that, when I’m learning something I go through cycles every time I learn a new technique or concept. Things feel rough for a while, as I engage with it actively and come to understand it and internalize it. While that happens, I feel like I’m doing worse, and often am, because I’ve pushed outside of my comfort zone. Then I’ll spend some time with it, and internalize so it’s automatic, and will be performing better than I was before. Then after it’s internalized, I recognize something else new to learn, and the process repeats.

It’s not as obvious when first starting because those cycles come so fast, that it feels like a smooth line. Then as you get to the intermediate level, the cycle becomes clear.

Keep working. Embrace the struggle.

But also trust your instincts. If it feels like a wall or frustration and the more you practice a technique, the worse it gets - stop. Put it aside. Work on something else. You need time to recover, process, and internalize.

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I hope you don’t mind my answering a question with a question, but as you are well aware there are always walls, plateaus, or whatever, and to whatever degree, in all we strive to learn and do.

How have you overcome that in your other endeavors? Because it seems like you have the right attitude

Be okay with not being okay (i.e., not being where you want to be), after all you have just begun. When did you start playing? Why the expectation, and resulting frustration, as not being “good enough” - yet?

Consistency is the answer. Take fitness for example. Most people enjoy rapid gains and then hit a plateau, which throws them off entirely. They stop exercising and eating well creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their belief influences their behavior which prevents them from improving. So, the answer is - practice, especially when you don’t feel like it. Josh has recently said as much. (Edit to add, but not if you’re in a state that is just making it worse as @BeerBaron said above, which in the fitness analogy would be training while injured).

So, to answer your questions 1) I’m always - always - hitting a wall whenever I try something outside my current limits, but therein lies the joy when I actually achieve what I’m striving for (it’s the journey not the destination) and 2) what keeps me going is knowing the above

giphy

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If you hit a wall, stop, drop, and just play some fn music.

Seriously. Pick tunes you like that aren’t that hard and just find a tabbed play along on YouTube and learn that way.

The course is amazing. Some day I hope to finish. But I took a break, joined a band and have played in front of people this year.

Don’t let some fake notion of “completion” hamstring your success.

I even tell my band mates, “sorry guys I’m not rushing through learning these 50 songs, if I want to practice stuff just for fun I’m going to do it”

The trick is to fall in love with playing music. Practice kinda sucks but once you are 5-10 mins in you realize it’s a lot of fun to play.

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I’ve been like 4 lessons from finishing for several months. :rofl:

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If you can do the slow/medium workout, move on to the next lesson. Don’t worry about it, you can always circle back

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Dukea,

I have the advantage of having been through multiple instrument pathways at various stages of life. Earliest was piano at about 1st or 2nd grade, then trumpet in 4th. One thing I can say is that walls happen, but the key is to keep practicing the fundamentals slowly and daily. My piano teacher would hammer me on this in her sweet but firm way. She would use the old cliche: “It’s not a race, it’s a marathon.” But she was and is correct!

To answer your questions, 1. I haven’t yet hit a wall that I couldn’t either go around the long way or climb over it with some intense effort. And 2, what keeps me going is looking back at how far I’ve come. That’s the most important answer I have.

Not sure how well a biblical reference will land in this forum, but bear with me. When the Israelites crossed the Jordan river in the Old Testament, they stopped and built an altar of 12 stones (Joshua 4, at Gilgal). For what purpose? To remember. That’s it. Just to remember from whence they came. Why is that important? Because humans have incredibly bad memory when it comes to positive things. Sad as it seems, we are far more apt to remember negative stuff than positive. The key is to set placeholders - your “12 stones” - to remember where you’ve come from.

The question for you is, what is your “12 stones” riff/song? Mine is Don’t Stop Believin’ by Journey. When I’m stuck or feeling unmotivated because I can’t play like Josh, Charles Berthoud, or Victor Wooten, I play Don’t Stop Believin’ and just smile as I remember the time when I couldn’t play that song at all! :slight_smile:

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:100:

And sometimes even a short break - a couple days, etc - will work wonders. Sometimes it takes a couple sleep cycles for the message to land in your brain.

Also, make sure to get enough sleep while learning.

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I hit a few walls during the course. What got me through it was stepping away from the course and just play. ZZ Top songs like “TV Dinners” and Rolling Stones “Anybody seen my baby” are easy and slow enough you can play along with them. It helped me to know that yes, I can play, just not like Josh at this point in the lessons. Build some confidence then ease back into the next lesson.

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I like billy jean. Its my fourth day and its my warm up exercise. Its just like playing the police every breathe you take on guitar. Its my bass warm up now. Note reading now can be a bit of a challenge,using music sheet not the tab. It will surely slow you down if youre not use to reading fast and applying it. But im loving this course. Even when cooking i have my bass in the kitchen… just playing and playing.

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Hey Antonio I have just finished the Billy Jean of evil…:smile:. It was a nightmare , however this has made me want to play even more. At first I was totally demotivated during the lesson and then I remembered what Josh said that this is a Benchmark lesson. An important distinction from a regular lesson. As I have only being playing a few weeks I only managed the first bar of the fast workout and then just tried to comp along. I have a new found respect for the instrument (which I have named Dusty Pearl) and the dedication it takes to master it. I admit that , to state a British phrase, at one point I think I was just taking the piss out of myself. It was pretty funny. I believe that in an attempt to keep up and failing my fingers may have become detached at one point…:smile:. I will be interested to see how much progress I have made when I go back to it. I think everyone who does the Billy Jean Benchmark of evil should be well proud of themselves just for even having the courage to try. I think the benchmark lesson is a great Josh bass guy idea. I hope course is going well for you Antonio. All the best Nikolai

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Well I didn’t expect such a great response! Let me get into it.

A great step I found was when I hit “Gimme all your lovin” in the course and while it is simple it was great to see how quickly I nailed a simple but recognisable bassline, which was a nice balance to some of the basslines that are more like mental tongue twisters.

Totally! I love the the course is well designed to keep moving forward.

Yes, I avoided mentioning where because to be honest I am rolling along just fine and not stuck, I wanted to talk more about the feeling of hitting a wall that any one lesson that is tricky, and the fact is that my frustration is just part of my brain being impatient to get good, while the rest of it is enjoying the fantastic ride. I think it is important to put aside the frustration when it is unhelpful and enjoy the journey.

This is a fantastic analogy that made me hungry but also nails that need to remember not to quit near the breakthrough.

Too true. I took that on when Josh first said it, but having had a small bit of practice before the course started, I didnt struggle on a fast workout until quite a few lessons after he had made that point. A really important thing for me was to cool off and take the time to bookmark the workouts I struggled with so that I already have some targets to return to after a few more modules.

The zig zag is a good way to think of it. I have wondered if the course is designed with this in mind, because it gets you to progress in areas in a nice rotation (you have the fiddly ska beats then you work with rests then you work with speed etc…).

Stepping back so that I don’t keep bashing my head against a wall. I know it makes more sense to practise somewhere else or just have fun.

This is great advice. Also, I consider this when I know I am probably a bit too tired to do a lesson but want to keep some consistency. I go back to some of the simple recognisable basslines that i have fun playing and find they probably roll of more easily than the day before. Gets the fingers moving without harming the learning experience.

I aspire to this. I am late to learning an instrument but I would love to do a B2B style course for another instrument down the line…

Absolutely, I keep a bunch of these in mind, both in the forms of basslines I play weekly, but I also bookmark some workouts that I will let myself wait a while to go back to.

One of the hardest challenges of all…

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I think they absolutely had that in mind.

I’m a long time educator and instructor of lots of different activities. Teaching is a separate skill from playing music. Pedagogy (how to teach effectively) is a separate topic from music theory.

The way the course is laid out is incredibly intentional and brilliant. It is broken down into chunks the length of time before most people start losing focus. It then forces you to pause, recenter, and choose to move on. It very intentionally shifts from active instruction to practical exercise. The topics of lessons progress but make appropriate intentional jumps to different topics to not overload you with any one idea. It very intentionally adjusts difficulty level so after challenging exercises (“Billie Jean”) it follows up with simpler ones to boost your confidence.

If you want a confidence boost, go back and look at what you were struggling with in Module 2.

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