What key is this in?

I almost wanted to come to this conclusion, but I have no idea if it’s true or not?! But glad you threw it out there @eric.kiser , because maybe we could get some discussion on this.

Somehow I really like this thought :thinking: The bass player telling the guitarist(s) what to do, and the parameters of playing. I may be just a tad biased by now, but the bass player is really the key person instrumentally, bridging the rhythm and melody section, so shouldn’t they be the one calling a lot of the shots?! :grinning:

Hugs, brother! Really needed to hear this. I know one temperamental person that’s not going to like hearing the song though! To be fair, I’ll (eventually) post it, and anyone can compare the two. Just the notes, and the order they are in are the same (and the bassline). New song’s called “Silent Altitude”

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Guys: great discussions and insight here!!

@Vik first of all, great to hear that and how you are bouncing back. Taking those chords and making them your own song sounds like the best “therapy” to move on. The chords and the sequence are used a lot, so nobody can really claim ownership here. How to take that chord sequence and add melody, lyrics, groove and all that is really how you make it your own!!

@Vik and @eric.kiser: Somehow, I don’t think it should be up to the bass player to “decide” on the key. It really depends on the chords, more specifically, which types of chords are being used. In the original post, it seemed these were simply power chords (root-fifth-octave), and, yes, there you have a lot of leeway in terms of basslines and melodies - just trust you ears!

However, as soon as there are thirds in the chords and sevenths etc, then you can no longer ignore these “flavors” as the bass player - unless, you slavishly stick to playing roots and perhaps some fifths, So, I think it is just more “natural” to construct a bass line over an existing chord sequence (taking into account the flavors of the chords) than to retro-fit some chords to an existing bass line (you might find chords that theoretically fit to the bass line, but the resulting chord sequence sounds lame/wrong/un-interesting).

Back to the key discussion, though: I wanted to re-iterate a question I originally posed: is it important to know the key?? Who really needs to have that information? Is it the bass player (does he/she need to know the key or is knowledge of the chords sufficient)? The singer constructing a melody? I guess both, bass player and singer, could just trust their ears. Is it then those who want to solo over these chords? Perhaps, as it could help them find a scale that works for all/most of the chords. But, again, in rock music, you’ll find that most soloists play by ear, and mostly use pentatonic or blues scales.

And in the example in the Neely video: did Lynard Skynard really think about what key their song was going to be as they sat down and composed? And did they, on purpose, put in a melody that would make the tonality ambiguous? I can’t imagine… I think they played what sounded good to them and were not overly concerned about music theory or some “nerds” arguing about the key of the song more than 40 years later :smile:

So, for all practical purposes, in most pop and rock songs, it is really secondary what key it is in (IMHO).

Now, if you are writing sheet music (or transcribing), it is a bit different. Here, if you, for example, find yourself constantly writing #'s in front of your F’s and C’s, it is certainly much more convenient to put two #s at the beginning of each line and thus “declare” this song to be in D major/B minor. And, if it indeed resolves to B in the end, then I guess B minor is a fair conclusion.

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Right, nice tread, I’m writing as well. Just my 2 cents to this:

If someone asked you which key is it in, they want to know what they can expect on chord progression or in other words where they can improvise on, play along.

It makes it easier: The person who wrote the song is the first to give it a key, as that one then decide in what mood (read major or minor sound) the tune or song is. Yet depending on the singer you might have to change the key: depending on the range of the singer. But that doesn’t alter the progression or sequence of the songs notes and sound: only make it sound higher or lower. In general a given key can chance the mood of a song: major key sounds more happy, minor key sounds more sad.

@Vik your chord progression B-E-A-D gives a D-major key to me. Have a look at this for some explanation : https://playpiano.com/piano-chords/secrets-of-exciting-chords-chord-progressions-lesson-twenty-two to get the hang of it.

I found this resource a long time ago and stil use it, I hope to have the time next year to start Friedemans Acadamy :wink: Youtube Holistic Songwriting I’ve already done some of his courses just for rearranging folk tunes into folkrock: https://blog.holistic-songwriting.com/home/

Now I’m off to practice bass (and finishing a new song of my own in the same time)

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Thanks for refreshing this topic @RemcoRG, and for the links and your input!

I actually still like that BEAD song, and play it on the bass still, and this conversation came to my mind not long ago, so it was good to re-read it just now. I think, for now, anyway, I put aside that urge to want to know, and am just playing what sounds good. I could probably over-analyze any of the key options, or try to make them work, but not going to worry about it for now.

That sounds like a neat course to dive deeper into songwriting there! You’ll have to post any original songs you write in the forum here. And maybe review that course for us if you take it - that looks like a good deal, the one for 7 days for $7. He’s got a lot of mini-courses too there.

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You’re welcome @Vik,
I have been writing lyrics for a long time, just about two year ago I started to write music and tunes to it. So yeah, I will try to post as soon as my bass playing is up to it. :guitar: Give me a couple of months.

You don’t need to over analyse it, keep it simple. Most often the lowest note is the key, if all the used note in your progression ‘fit’ to them. Which easily translate to, if it sounds good to you, it most likely is! Just look up the differences between major of minor (sounding happy or sad is my help to that) scale (group of 'fitting’notes :rofl:).

Friedeman has a lot of mini courses and I’ve done several of them already. If you’re new to music writing he goes in full with the academy, teasing you to work on your own structure, yet keeping in mind the ideas and practices he’s been using for several year. The mini-courses are not to deep, but just enough to get you on track in a very good sence. So if you’re starting they are perfect to get a feeling for it, without over-analyzing writing. It helps to get your idea of a song across others more easily. At least that’s how I approache songwriting in general.

You might not like his own musical work, but I found the courses a lot of fun to work with. It helped with bringing my ideas, my story, to life through the lyrics and music.
I tend to work from lyrics and a bass line in my head, that gives me the groove. (I play folkrock/rock with some soul influences, at least that’s what I’ve been told :face_with_hand_over_mouth: about my songs) Before I write it down, the music is often just recorded at home, on bass and sometimes on keys. When needed I write it down using Musescore for notation. Sometimes I get help from band members, mostly it’s just me on my own. To think about, it’s about time to get some recordings done in the rehearsal-room :thinking: might schedule that in January…

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