Does Tone Wood Matter on Electric Instruments?

Gear
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In the video from the original post the guy says he contacted three manufacturers asking for the top five things that affect tone. All three were different in their responses.

This one seems to reflect what I’m hearing from most people in this thread.

  1. The player, the player, and the player
  2. Pickups and other electronics
  3. Hardware
  4. Construction (scale length, chambered body, etc.)
  5. Wood and materials used in construction

Does this order of what is important fit with what everybody else is thinking?

Part of what I’m doing with this post is trying to take what can be a contentious topic and trying to find some common ground.

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@Never2Late The biggest thing I got out of those videos was where he said “tone is subjective” and he wasn’t even testing for that.

The other thing was, there were times he said one wood sounded just like another even though I could swear I heard a difference.

@terb Fender built six guitars to specifications for Tom Morello. He came in and spent time playing all of them but only took two. One to give away and the one he thought played and sounded the best, for himself.

Just expounding on the idea that six guitars, all built by the same luthier, to the same specifications, in the same Fender Custom Shop facility, can still sound and feel different to the point that someone would choose one over the others.

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43

also “Blackie” is a celebrity. Eric Clapton took several vintage Stratocasters (1956 and 1957 models), chose the best parts (including the body) from each guitar, and rebuilt what has been his main guitar for years.

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I saw that bit about three manufacturers. I applied my standard for anonymous sources, which is ignore it and move on.

Your order doesn’t fit my thinking in that construction should be #1. if it’s fretless, than tonewood will have a greater impact on the neck. If it’s hollow body, than that has it’s own acoustics. a pbass will sound like a pbass, so will a Rick.

Then everything comes from there.

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45

Well, I would remove the player of the equation, since it’s the only common factor (ie: if you’re comparing the sound between some of your basses, you’re the only constant)

Aside from that, I have a similar list.

1- Pickups
2- Electronics and hardware
3-Construction (and I include all materials and variants here (like fanned frets, neck-through, etc))
7- Wood

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46

He chose the body for the color, according to himself in the intro to the book The Stratocaster Chronicles.

Edit His long-time guitar tech Lee Dickson has said this, too, about the body.

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I have 2 Bubinga bodied basses and the sustain on them seems never ending. They’re kind to the eye too but they weigh in the region of 4.5 kgs each!
I do wonder if nowadays with all the electronics available if it’s all achievable at the flick of a switch instead of breaking your back.

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48

My two cents…

Body wood affects tone

Body wood likely affects the tone less than 10%

Amateurs like most of us probably won’t hear the difference or it is so minor that we won’t care.

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49

Thanks, @terb . . . :+1:

Good post!

Cheers
Joe

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50

Where do myths get started?
One of the most interesting things about human nature is the ability to accept a concept and the inability to release the concept when told said concept is complete rubbish.
Ex. You can’t go swimming for 1/2 hour after you eat, Yadda Yadda Yadda

Last night I was watching an interview with a friend of mine who is the world’s leading authority on vintage sax repair. He is the best there is. The topic was relacquering saxophones and why relaquering made a horn sound so bad. Matt (Stohrer) the repair expert then told the story that back in the 30s when you got an overhaul on a sax, it went back to the factory to get the work done. Part of the overhaul back then was to relacquer the horn so it was shiny and new. Back then, brass lacquer was nitro-cellulose (epoxy based today), and that old lacquer didn’t stay perfect for long. The factory would disassemble the horn and dip it in a vat of nitric acid to get the old lacquer off, then send it to the buffing department (guys who buffed things all day every day and new how to do it right), then relacquer perfectly.

Fast forward to when factories cut costs and stopped offering this service and locally owned shops took over sax repair - Now you have a bunch of folks trying to do an overhaul (and relacquer process, including buffing) that did not have a nice vat of acid (dangerous for small shop) nor the 1000s of hours of buffing experience, and these shops started taking metal away on tone holes, making them in level, etc. Making key work not fit as tightly or well, and all of a sudden there were a lot of crappy ‘relacquered’ horns out there. So shops stopped doing the relacquer - cause they simply sucked at it.

So, does relacquering a horn make it suck? - no
Does doing it poorly make it suck? - yup
But the headline is ‘relacquered horns suck’ and that is all folks can remember.
But 99% of people don’t know why.
They blame the lacquer being ‘too thick’ and it ‘changes the sound’.
No, all those damages incurred change the sound.

What does this have to do with tone wood?
Directly - nothing.
Indirectly - everything. Lore is built around very unsubstantiated things, and carried forever.
Most anyone in this forum can take two of the exactly same built basses that are built out of different woods and with a screwdriver and Allen wrench make them sound identical and make them sound different. Different in that A sounds better than B, and then B sounds better than A. Then they can go to a trade show or post a video about what the tone wood does for their own purposes. The smallest smallest change in volume will want you to like the louder one 90% of the time.

Same goes in my work world.
Sweeter wins. (This is why the Pepsi challenge in the ‘80s worked - on a sip test Pepsi always wins. On a ‘drink a full can test’ its 50/50 at best (too sweet for too long is usually a negative). But anyone who remembers the Pepsi Challenge knows Pepsi wins hands down.
More carbonation wins, people love bubbles for some reason.
Every single time.
We know this and have to carefully control it not to skew results.

Color affects taste - this we have proven, and its false!
We have red and blue lights in our sensory testing booths to negate the color of a beverage because people will perceive taste differences on color alone. We have proven (very scientifically) that people perceive taste differences in color only differences, so we have to mask the color to get proper results.

If color alone affects taste (which is a learned thing) then why can’t people hear a difference in tone wood that perhaps isn’t there or isn’t as pronounced as they think? They can, and I am sure they do.

Kinda eluding to @Koldunya’s point earlier, without painstakingly careful attention and total ignorance to perceived notions, the debate will never end about tone woods. And even then, it won’t end, because many already believe they play a bigger role than they already do, cause its been said enough times. Say it enough times and its will become reality….Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice!

Besides, we only believe what we agree with anymore (thanks Facebook) - no? :rofl: :rofl:

This rant was brought to you by a crappy day at work yesterday :rofl:

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51

I remember reading Dan Ariely’s book - Predictably Irrational. In one of the chapters he talked about how being told the ingredients of something affected the outcome. But in a blind test we sometimes chose slightly differently. Fascinating stuff. He’s an article about it. Free beer!

Original study paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251790508_Try_It_You'll_Like_It_The_Influence_of_Expectation_Consumption_and_Revelation_on_Preferences_for_Beer

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In my career I have changed the shape of a bottle and we got calls about why did we change the formula.

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53

Yes, 100%. A good player can even make a $80 bass sound good no matter the type of wood.

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Line6 has been making the Variax guitar for a long time. You can pick guitar presets for it and even store those in their modelers along with the amp and effects. I think you can even ‘design’ your own guitar with body and neck woods, etc which is hilarious for this debate going on lol…

I know some software out there, like Positive Grid’s Bias (LOL… named after biasing a tube amp :eyes: ) FX 2, has a thing where it listens to your guitar and then attempts to make it sound like a vintage Strat, Les Paul, etc. I don’t know how accurate it is, but it’s a thing that’s out there and people are trying what you’re talking about already. I’ve often wondered myself if all these things are possible with just the right EQ settings, etc. Kinda makes sense to me from what I know about amp design, at least, and sound design.

Fishman Fluence pickups don’t use coils/windings of copper wire; it’s all electronics wizardry for their tone via the preamp. They change voicings at the flick of a switch. They seem to have 2-3 voicings depending on the chosen pickup, and have the worst battery life of active pickups on the market likely due to their design.

I have a guitar with a bubinga body. I never considered its sustain compared to other instruments, but it’s also a bolt-on neck and not neck through. It’s super light, but I always assumed that was due to the amazing Ibanez S body shape. I also know fuck all about bubinga itself in the first place lol… I bought it because it was “pretty” and “classy looking” (it’s an Ibanez SIX28FDBG; online pictures do not do it justice at all) tbh and I wanted to try out 8-string guitars.

Confirmation bias is a helluva drug :smile:

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Amen! (Pun intended)

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This has also been scientifically proven for audio in the context of loudspeaker perception by the research of Dr. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive when they were at Harman. They demonstrated that people aren’t always able to hear what they claim when subjected to true double blind comparisons.

At the Harman Pro headquarters in Northridge, CA they built a “speaker shuffler.” Multiple pairs of speakers were placed on platforms that moved them into the listening position from a back row lineup using silent air casters. It wasn’t even possible to listen for where they came from. The stage was one long continuous black scrim with strong front lighting so it wasn’t possible to see even the slightest bit through the acoustically transparent fabric. The order of the loudspeaker selection for listening and the playback of the source material was controlled by a computer so no party could know which speaker was in the playback position.

There’s also a study in UX design where two automatic cash machine interfaces were user tested. They were identical in touch screen button size, shape, text size, font, function. The only difference was that one was done is beautifully designed colors and the other one with a plain ordinary color scheme, it may have even been greyscale monochrome. The more beautiful interface was consistently reported as being easier to use. I think this example may have been in the book, “Emotional Design,” but I’m not sure I remember correctly by now.

For me in cases like this it doesn’t really matter if I’m having a perceptual illusion or not. I’ll chase an element that I think is fun to chase. I’m only entertaining myself with things like this anyway. If I believe it, I’ve been entertained.

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@John_E that’s a great insight to the world of sax. My feeling about how this movement started is a few people who has a genuine sensitivity to change like every thing else in life you can live without knowing but once you get the first taste of the difference, it will make itself known to you like it’s the only thing that matter.

Reminds me of my mountain biking days, people talks about frame flexing, I didn’t get it til one day while entering the corner I felt my tires rolled thought that I burped the air cornering too hard, I stopped and check they were fine. I had my suspicion but didn’t come to any conclusion till it happened a few more times, from then on I knew. I’ve ridden years without ever feeling and knowing it and all was great.

My point is very few people actually experienced it as it can’t be taught. Aside from the obvious that companies’ marketing point, people just feel more superior telling others about this phenomenon (or whatever it is in your particular hobby), adding to the beliefs like it’s their own.

If a company really believes in this phenomenon and really wants to pursue this kind of sales they should be selling something similar to the Musicman Joe Dart signature bass with just one volume knob or better yet Joe Dart Jr with no control knobs of any kind. Pete Wentz signature bass also has one volume knob. Then they can shout wood tone is important.

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I suspect if you were to take two guitars made of the same wood, there would be subtle differences in the sound as wood is unique.

Color does affect taste. Gummy Bears are all the same, except color. And green tastes different than red. Same with M&Ms. But that goes to the fact that your brain lies to you and what your senses feed you isn’t necessarily what is going on in the real world.

Ever see how big the moon is when it’s low on the horizon, or how small it is when it’s overhead? In actuality they’re the same size, your brain is sending you different data.

But that’s an entirely different discussion.

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That’s the sort of research I would love to see for this debate, though again, suspect it will never happen. There’s money in selling consumers a better auditory experience. There’s no real money in the possibility of telling consumers that their precious combination of “tonewoods” they so painstakingly chose in their custom guitar for a “signature sound” does absolutely fuck all :joy: Or even if it does a little. Or a lot. And they might not even recoup the costs if it turns out there is a substantial difference. Maybe if I get a financial windfall I can fund such research XD

This is why I try very hard not to really even give an opinion one way or another on this. I’m not even sure how I feel myself. I’ve certainly been on Warmoth or Kiesel’s website having fun imagining what different combinations of body, top (mainly for appearance, though, tbh), and neck woods may or may not do. I don’t know how much it will or won’t do, but it’s not my money if people want to do this themselves, nor is it my place to insult people by telling them they are crazy, just hearing things, or god forbid stupid or somehow inferior/broken. We get one life to live, and everyone deserves to enjoy it how they best feel as long as it doesn’t cause harm to other people.

And while I said I do this sort of thing on custom websites, I don’t really get into it on “store bought” instruments. Their appearance often catches my eye first, and then how well I think they play, and finally how good or bad I think they sound. I honestly don’t think I have “a signature sound” for myself, which could explain why it doesn’t bother me much. My Stiletto 5 does not sound like my C-5 GT, and that’s okay. They both sound really good for their own reasons. Both are mahogany bodies with flamed maple tops. One is maple/walnut neck through, the other is maple set neck. One ebony fretboard, one rosewood (though this is super dark rosewood; it stained my fingers, I think they might have dyed it black heh). Their pickups could not be more different, however, and they have different preamps. I could probably get their sounds pretty close, if I wanted, but I don’t.

Am I going to be in an aggressive rock or metal band? C-5 GT all the way. Stiletto would be fine, though.

Doom, gothic, or rock band? Hard to beat the Stiletto here for me. But I could use the C-5 and be happy.

I still want a Jazz or ‘J style’ bass. I’m not fussy on what it’s made out of, as long as it has a narrow neck and those two thin/narrow J pickups in the right spot :smiley:

Anyway, I’m rambling and digressing a bit, I think, so I will close this comment and just click ‘Reply’ lol

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60

The Stilleto has passive pickups while the GT are active. The GT has a P pickup (in soapbar housing) near the neck and a humbucker near the bridge, while the Stilleto is dual humbuckers.

That’s a lot more to do with the sound than the wood. Both very nice instruments btw

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