Mobile theory learning apps, do you use any?

[howard]

@Celticstar

If you do a google search for how many keys there are in western music you get all sorts of different answers. Some getting into enharhonics, like you did. No wonder a lot of people get confused by music theory.

What he is getting at is that the number of keys and the proper number of slots on the circle are two different things. There is no distance between the enharmonics and thus they should not occupy separate slots in the circle. You usually see them written together in the same spot. Which IMO is correct.

[Barney]

I have a vague memory of being here before.

[John_E]

@Celticstar

I don’t think so.
Ever seen this video:

Yes, techinically correct…however…very few spell out 15 keys in the circle.
12 is the norm with the Db/C# and Gb/F# and B/Cb doubled up.

Per @sshoihet comment, it is much more useful to just learn it this way period.
You can point out how this is more technically accurate all day long, but it is not common nor necessary.

I have never had a need to be in the key of Cb - ever, and highly doubt anyone here needs to either.

And it ain’t us sax guys screwing it up, its the damn guitarists and vocalists who insist in playing in those god awful keys. We are all happy to ignore them all from 3:00 to 9:00.

[sshoihet]

@howard

What he is getting at is that the number of keys and the proper number of slots on the circle are two different things. There is no distance between the enharmonics and thus they should not occupy separate slots in the circle. You usually see them written together in the same spot. Which IMO is correct.

There’s a good reason it always has 12 segments in the circle of fifths: math. There are 12 tones in the 12 TET system; with 12 segments, going around the circle in 4ths/5ths means that you get to each of the 12 notes one time before getting back to the start.

Now you can make a circle in any intervals you like but it really doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t have the utility of the circle of 4ths/5ths.

Pythagoras knew what he was doing

[sshoihet]

@Celticstar

If you do a google search for how many keys there are in western music you get all sorts of different answers. Some getting into enharhonics, like you did. No wonder a lot of people get confused by music theory.

I don’t need to google search anything because I understand the concepts. There’s nothing confusing here, anyone who is confused doesn’t adequately understand the concepts. There are 12 notes in the 12 TET system. There are 7 sharp key signatures, there are 7 flat key signatures, there is one key signature with no flats/sharps: that’s 15 key signatures. The circle of 5ths has 12 segments with 15 keys if you include the 3 enharmonic keys. You add sharps (subtract flats) CW, you add flats (subtract sharps) CCW; that’s the beauty of it, adjacent keys on the circle are only different by one note.

@Celticstar

The whole purpose of the blank chart was to give @jacq something that he may be able to use to construct all of the Major and Minor keys and their scales, regardless of enharmonic keys. Just trying to help out. No more no less.

and my point is that your chart is confusing because it breaks the utility of the circle of 4ths/5ths. You’ve given the enharmonic keys their own spaces on the circle which doesn’t make any sense. It’s like making a clock with 15 numbers where 3 pm is shown as 3 but also as 15.

[Barney]

@sshoihet

It’s like making a clock with 15 numbers

[sshoihet]

@John_E

And it ain’t us sax guys screwing it up, its the damn guitarists and vocalists who insist in playing in those god awful keys. We are all happy to ignore them all from 3:00 to 9:00.

Transposing instruments are fun, I just thought I’d give you a hard time

Yes, it’s relatively rare to see music with more than 3 or 4 sharps/flats unless there’s a composer who is intentionally being difficult

[John_E]

There are a couple Tower of Power songs that are hell on bari.
What Is Hip is actually in C# for bari (famous last words about not needing it, lol.

[Celticstar]

@sshoihet

…my point is that your chart is confusing because it breaks the utility of the circle of 4ths/5ths.

I find that funny and am sorry you find it confusing.

How the chart came about being in the first place was, a few years ago, I had several people ask me why if there were 15 major keys and 15 minor keys why there was not a circle chart showing them all individually instead of doubling up on them in 3 sections. They found that confusing. Even after I explained the enhamonic keys they still wanted a 30 Key chart. So I put that chart together for them and they were happy.

Anyways I think this horse was beaten to death a while back so I see no need to carry this conversation on any further

[Barney]

@Celticstar

They found that confusing. Even after I explained the enhamonic keys they still wanted a 30 Key chart.

I’m quite stupid compared to most of my family / friends but even I have grasped this principle.

A# can also be called Bb. So it’s 1 note but with two different names. But we only count it once because there’s only one note.

If I look outside my house, I can see my wife’s ‘car’ but if I use the other official language of Canada to describe the car we might use the words ‘une voiture’.

So two words to describe the ‘car’ but still only one car outside the house.

That’s it. Done.

[sshoihet]

@Barney

If I look outside my house, I can see my wife’s ‘car’ but if I use the other official language of Canada to describe the car we might use the words ‘une voiture’.

So two words to describe the ‘car’ but still only one car outside the house.

Well now you have 2 cars and the bank and the government are going to want their money

[sshoihet]

@Celticstar

@sshoihet

…my point is that your chart is confusing because it breaks the utility of the circle of 4ths/5ths.

I find that funny and am sorry you find it confusing.

Oh I don’t find it confusing, just wrong and confusing for anyone else who expects a circle of 5ths and isn’t getting that.

[howard]

@sshoihet

Yes, it’s relatively rare to see music with more than 3 or 4 sharps/flats unless there’s a composer who is intentionally being difficult

Ironically those keys are really easy on piano

[sshoihet]

@Barney

@sshoihet

It’s like making a clock with 15 numbers

Great, now I probably have to work those extra 3 hours for the same pay

[sshoihet]

@howard

@sshoihet

Yes, it’s relatively rare to see music with more than 3 or 4 sharps/flats unless there’s a composer who is intentionally being difficult

Ironically those keys are really easy on piano

Gb pentatonic scales all day long

[howard]

Seriously easier to play than Cmaj. They should teach them first

[sshoihet]

This is one of my favourite circle of fifths videos Why Isn't There A Circle Of Sixths? - YouTube I just love how amused Charles is by this stuff.

Somewhere on YT is a video where the guy explains how useful his circle of 3rds is and that it’s more important than the circle of 5ths

[sshoihet]

@howard

Seriously easier to play than Cmaj. They should teach them first

This reminds me of my favourite Reddit debate/argument: what key is C mixolydian in?

It’s the fifth mode of F major so it uses the notes of F major/D minor but people say that makes it confusing because they expect the music to resolve to the tonic of the key… so then it should be in C major with an accidental ♭on ever B note.

[howard]

And once again, people fixate on terminology sophistry when all that really matters are the intervals themselves.

[John_E]

@Barney

So two words to describe the ‘car’ but still only one car outside the house.

It’s ok. The other car would perpetually have two flats, too much trouble.