Song Construction (Pre-Verse, Chorus, Bridge, etc.)

kinda disappointing to think we are programmed to the point that most of our musical taste has been boiled down to a formula. It doesn’t negate the talent in writing or musicianship, I just I hadn’t realized it. Experiments in songs without choruses…most blues that I listen to don’t have choruses. I’m not talented enough to pull off the formula, pre chorus, bridge. I’m lucky if I can get three verses and a solo under my fingers. God forbid I have to write something with more than four chords.

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I hear you. I think the lens at which to look at it helps with the perception. Friedman more so analyzed 100s of chart stopping songs and tried to figure out what it was they had in common, then he noticed a common “pattern” which he then pieced together as a formula. These songs turn out to have a lot in common. There are plenty of songs which don’t share the formula that is common and went big. So it’s more just a way to “look at” song writing. It’s interesting when you look at one of the formulas and try to apply it to a song you write. Sort of changes how you approach it.

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I think it is what it is. If you want to become a pop star or have a pop hit, there is a path to that which you can take by following a formula (and getting very lucky - never downplay luck. Relentless work can reduce the impact of luck, but never eliminate it completely).

But it’s not the only path.

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It is my thought that 95% of art - choose any medium, music, painting, movies, etc - are formulaic and unispired. The remaining 5% are originals.

Consider Vivaldi and the Four Seasons. In his day he did not write what everyone else was, was not popular, and not well thought of. But can you name any of his peers? The only one I can think of is Johann Christian Bach, and that’s only because of his dad.

So yeah, most of pop is unimaginitive. Most art is.

Argument #2 is go listen to the Rolling Stones catalog. I think you’ll find one or two good cuts off each album and the rest are meh. They put on a great show because they have a lot of albums out, but most of the music isn’t great.

That’s one of the things that sets the Beatles apart. Most of their music is great.

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I can give a personal account. A majority of the songs on our album were written instinctively. So we didn’t approach it with a formula in mind, just went with what felt right/sounded good. Regardless of that our songs happened to fall into a formula or structure. Intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, chorus was one we did without thinking quite a bit, just our subconscious familiarity from all we listened to. As we weren’t analyzing it with a formula, some songs maybe had extra parts, or longer parts etc…which caused them to sort of deviate from the “hit” formula. Which is cool, I am happy with all our songs! On the other side of it though, was being able to view the analytics, track the number of streams and all that of each song when we released it. Interestingly enough, the ones that were the “best performing” were the ones that happened to be closer to the formula (after we learned that there was one!).

Here is where it gets really interesting. Our latest single we decided to try and write using the formula. A few things on that. Artistically, we are VERY happy with the song. We think it is one of our best. So it isn’t like following it formula wise detracts from cool artistic input. But more interesting is it has been out the shortest time of any of our songs, yet is performing the best (stream numbers and thumbs up) by a significant margin. Not gonna say it is a hit, but it is a hit relative to all of our song releases.

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Look at Genesis. They had their artsy period, but when they started doing Top 40 stuff they sold a gazillion records; but it was still good music. 90125 is the best selling Yes record, and the most poppy. Poppy sells. But you can still be artistic within that formula.

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I’d go as far as if you actually analyze many of your own favorite songs, and know the aspects of some of the “formulas” you will find that those songs follow it. Even bands like Primus! It’s really interesting. Now pop itself has certain other things that other genres might not have, just in timbre, beats, tones etc, which aid in its “popularity”. Like it doesn’t use heavy distortion often, or double bass drums, things like that. But other genres can use that and follow a structure formula.

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Well, structure or pattern doesn’t really mean formula either of course. It’s possible to follow a song pattern without being formulaic, any more than haiku or pentameter are formulaic for poetry.

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In the book it also refers to energy levels and bigness, when and where to add layers , dynamics and space, staccato or legato type notes, so structure is just one part of it. In any case it is an interesting book. I still mostly write by feel, the stuff in the book is just a tool to use if you feel so inclined. More so We use it AFTER we have free form written a song and see if we can make any tweaks or changes.

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A great discussion here. I think it really demonstrates how complex this topic is. I think it is a mixture of how we are programmed, but we don’t fully understand the ins and outs of that yet. I also think there is a bit of nurture in this, in that most of us grow up hearing songs with a structure commonality, so begin to expect that. Of course, there is creative subjectivity, which also plays into this to varying degrees. BTW, I deal with human programming all the time in my career in pricing strategy. For example, prices ending in 99. Like it or not, our internal programming goes far beyond breathing and getting hungry.

When I write songs with my current band, we tend to naturally have an A part and a B part. One of those becomes the verse and one the chorus (usually the catchier sounding one). Then we work on transitions from one part to the next. But we generally find a bridge does not come naturally to us and that’s the one we have to think about the most. But, we’re pretty new to song-writing so are still figuring this out. To be honest, what the singer wants to do with her vocals and lyrics has a LOT of impact on the song structure for us. Though the starting point is always a draft A and B section.

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We have the exact same problem! Part A and Part B come pretty easily, beyond that is much harder. We have gotten much better at it though. One thing that really helps is just a bit of experimentation. Someone play part A or B by itself and then try different things to follow it up. Eventually you get something that works. You could also try to apply theory and start from a different interval to see what works, or even try a key change. Easy way to try a key change. Just go a whole step up, but instead of staying in previous scale change the scale. As an example. You are in A minor. Start the next part in B, but play the following progression in B minor. Bam, key change! There are of course way more complex key changes, but that simple one works and also adds a little energy.

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Makes me think of the song ABACAB by Genesis, who wrote A, B, and C parts, and the name was an early arrangement of said parts. Total non sequiter.

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Intro: the part where I play, but I shouldn’t. Because I know the notes and am so excited to play.

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There was a link to a book mentioned in a thread I can not locate regarding how some artists had written some of their hit songs. There were about 45 song breakdowns in the book. I remember Keith Richards being mentioned as one of the contributors. I believe @JT posted the link but I could be wrong.
Any ideas as to what this book is I am trying to locate?

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I don’t think it was me… But was it this?

Nope :disappointed_relieved:
I seem to remember the cover was red and plain with the title just splashed across it.
Thanks anyways.

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@Celticstar maybe it was this one (by @Vik):

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That’s the one.
Thank you.

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