It feels overwhelming due to future shock, i.e., beginner course grads or self-taught players don’t know what to expect from music theory courses. It’s not happy games or riff snippets; it’s learning to communicate in a brand new language.
As had been said many times in this forum, babies learn to talk by osmosis, constant exposure to weird noises and gestures from the giant creatures around them. They’re wired to do this.
As adults with very disparate life experiences, we can find learning a new language far harder: We know what we know, dammit, and we can communicate important daily stuff just fine, thank you very much!
I think the lightbulb moment happens whenever someone realizes that knowing how and why music is constructed actually helps them play better.
That’s really what we all want. To play better than we’ve done before. And it takes putting in work before you can get there.
I went to college as a Music Theory & Composition major. It was seriously grueling.
But life took me in a different direction and I put my theory studies away as I just played guitar, a little bass, and wrote songs.
Learning theory for bass has been interesting: the music theory principles are exactly the same as always, but the application to the instrument is different. So, not so much learning a new language, but a new dialect of a familiar language.
Still, that’s the theoretical aspect of bass. Meshing bass theory with technique has been the challenge and the payoff.
I was recently thinking I would like to find a deep dive theory class, old school (even online but live), with homework, etc to really cram that crap into my thick skull and force me to absorb. I do absorb it, but nothing much seems to stick these days. All available cells are filled with other stuff.
And it just seems like this is an opportunity for a different course. Going back to your baby analogy, instead of giving the vocabulary upfront, introduce some set of words, explore how they work in the real world to ground those concepts, then introduce more words and explore those concepts.
Instead of here are all the chord tones, drill them. Then learn some more extensions…I think I would prefer a course where it was: here’s a particular arpeggio - see it’s in Hotel California, and feel how that creates a foundation for the song. Now if we modify it and use a different third, we get this other chord tone, which is in song {insert proper song example here} and feel the difference between the application of the two chord choices.
That would help me contextualize the changes, and possibly help see the light sooner, and not feel like there’s the grind one has to go through…just cause everyone else had to do the grind.
I‘ve done a lot of school and had a few grinding courses…and always felt, sheesh - this didn’t have to be a grind afterwards. Which reminds me of this motivational quote - If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.
As a step towards to what you describe, you could find “chordal drones” and explore whether you can identify and play the chord tones over those drones - a good ear exercise in any case!
On quick search, I found these here (but I am sure you can find more; also in other keys):
I hear you about the “Here’s a song example with a bit of chord tone info. Now let’s jam it.” approach. Thats exactly what B2B excels at.
There are several other courses that, while not as uber-user-friendly as B2B, use a similar approach. There’s nothing wrong with that, as far as they go. But “as far as they go” is really a consumer choice of a given student.
Your “teach them to yearn” quote is right on in many ways.
For Mark’s theory courses, the pre-requisite for any student is to yearn to learn. In this case, that means having the yearn to do whatever it takes to learn to play better than yesterday.
TalkingBass courses are not for everyone. As I said, they are college-level music theory courses. Are they applicable to and approachable by beginners? Yes, but it depends entirely on the given beginner and whether he/she yearns to learn enough to commit to the work involved.
The information imparted in Mark’s music theory courses is invaluable, but the courses are not designed to engage a student like beginner courses must. Each student must BYOY: bring your own yearn.
And that seems like a shortcoming. Because people coming to the course are probably theory beginners…just not bass beginners. Though I’ll be the first to acknowledge that fixing it is a tall order. So that’s why I’m not pursuing a refund. There is a crazy amount of work that went into the course and I respect that. I just wish it was a little more student friendly instead of teacher friendly.
I think by buying classes and engaging with folks on forums about the theory, students are demonstrating the yearn to learn. It is a bit of a cop out to say college material has to be hard and uninteresting for the first X hours of it.
It’s like saying you can only drill scales for the first 3 months of learning the bass. Who wants that class?
But you’re right, that everyone’s got a different path for what works for them/what they’re willing to grind through. And I’m still finding my theory balance…
THIS!!! is perfect. @JoshFossgreen - IF (note the big if) you are developing another course that goes deeper, esp in theory, this is where I think you can shine. You already do this in B2B. The practical appliation part is missing - especially for a lot of us who don’t (or aren’t able, whatever) to seek out a band or others to play with. We apply our learnings in our basement, without the, well, practical practice of concepts.
I really like Mark Smith’s courses, but chord tones and scales are missing this element. At some point I just can’t spend days/weeks/months memorizing chords and scales. My pliable brain years are long over.
I have yet to see this anywhere @cbaray past beginner things. @MikeC’s baby analogy and your insight is exactly what is missing in so many ‘next level courses’.
It’s like they all go from zero to a zillion without practical application.
Let’s say you set out to learn Italian.
You go all out and buy Rosetta stone.
You take the entire course, but, you are not going to go live in Italy and speak it every day, all day, forever and ever amen.
But, you do want to be able to use it when you go there for work, or to talk to relatives, etc.
(this might be a true story btw)
So how to you apply the language concepts you have learned if you have no one to talk to frequently, every day, all day, forever and ever amen?
I know some language programs have online things where you can practice your newly learned skills and keep them up, but this is one person talking at one time, not people playing music together.
And not sure how well this will work with a bunch of bass players trying to figure this stuff out together.
It’s almost like the world needs an online learning tool that brings together various learners of various instruments to work some of this out (probably logistically impractial).
But…how do you take this concept and change it into an online practical application course thingy?
Ari has her study groups - but I don’t think that model suits all as it is an every saturday or something thing, etc. Bettersax.com has tried this with something called the Better Sax Studio, where they did a live lesson every month and focused on a standard, deconstructed it, talked about how to solo on it, etc. But, it quickly got away from me and went too fast (for me, and for what I think is a hobbyist player who has life and job etc in the way of playing a lot).
But if someone can crack this paradigm, - To me, this is pure gold.
What’s interesting is that Mark was an admitted “theory beginner” when he first attended music college. He was also a veteran gigging musician of many years who was largely self-taught. But that experience didn’t serve him very much in theory classes.
So he set out to devise a system to learn what he didn’t know so he could get up to speed fast. He followed the approach he presents in Chord Tones Essential to accomplish that.
It is not teacher-friendly; it’s actually the shortest distance between two points, with zero fluff - from not knowing music theory to knowing it.
And, again, it is a language - as intricate and involved as any other. It takes dedication to learn its basics from its prose from its nuances from its poetry.
There are threads and posts here on the forum where others share their experiences and successes with different teachers/courses out there, if TB theory courses don’t hit you. Best of luck in your journey.
Yeah - one of my favorite management lessons came from Management in Baseball. Where they had a guy who stole a lot of bases as a player go into managing a team, with that base stealing mentality…and the takeaway was what lead to your success doesn’t necessarily work for everyone else.
That’s what I meant by teacher friendly versus student friendly. Mark learned it this way - for a particular reason (to get through his coursework?) and that might not be the same way that others coming to it (who don’t have the same motivation) would be best served.
In another thread, folks mentioned the http://edly.com/theory-book which seemed interesting with their approach but I was hoping to stay bass centric. Though now it might be worth it to contrast and compare.
I looked at this site and this book looks a lot like Ari’s book without all the bass related slant.
If you like this style of book, then Ari’s first book might be up your alley.
It is a really good resource to have and go back to (something no one really does but should).
Question has come up for me - as we talk about grinding and just putting in the time.
That makes sense to me for skills - like slapping, or ear training, or reading music. Is just going to take practice. No short cuts.
But for concepts, it seems like if they are taught well, then you should be able to get it without the grind. (Other topics that one isn’t interested in, but must learn cause of external requirements, can feel like a grind to learn/get through, but that’s more due to a lack of interest.)
My assumption here, is that chord tones are more of a concept than a skill and they could be learned grind free. Is that too naive?
Chord tones are the money notes of a bass line. They make up arpeggios that are used in jillions of lines. Arpeggios are the skeletal touchstones that make up scales and modes. And on, and on, and on.
I don’t know about anyone else’s experience, but studying Chord Tones Essentials, then Scales Essentials and Simple Steps to Sightreading, then Simple Steps to Walking Bass has provided me with a 360° perspective on how and why bass lines are constructed the ways they have historically been.
The practical, technique-oriented benefits of learning and playing arpeggios, scales, modes and etudes through the Circle of Fourths/Fifths have been really rewarding. They are a massive fretting hand and brain workout, not to mention that the plucking/picking hand benefits as well.
So, music theory on bass as it manifests as absorbing concepts can be looked at as a grind, if you will. But when those concepts are applied to actually playing/practicing, making notes and lines on the bass, they are a stone gas. YMMV.
Respectfully, I’ve found chord tones to be pure memorization only up to the point that they’re internalized by practicing arpeggios, scales and progressions. The physicality of playing and calling out chord tones as they’re played makes them actual things, rather than theoretical concepts.
When that happens, memorization goes out the window, because chord tones reside under the fingers.
Just my experience that well-practiced patterns like arpeggios or scales tend to happen on auto-pilot over time, particularly when the same pattern(s) are played sequentially through the Circle of Fourths/Fifths. I don’t know if it works that way for anyone else.
Pretty cool stuff- thanks for the input. I can see it both ways - how it’s just a bunch of things to memorize and how it’s also like language. In the sense that you start off having to think about vocabulary and the right conjugation to use…but after a while, it just flows. And it doesn’t feel like memorization. And onto of all that, some folks learn languages easier than others!
Makes me appreciate the challenge of teaching the subject even more, given the varied learning styles of students coming to a course.
