What's Your DAI (Digital Audio Interface)?

[Whying_Dutchman]

@howard

I think you could save yourself a lot of expense and frustration by simply being a bit more adaptable to different hardware and the different approaches they take.

Thank you!

Learning is never a frustration (only for the moment, but later it’s great).
If I don’t like something, I can always send it back. That’s the great thing about the times we live in, right? So, no expense (in fact I just saved 100€ with the ES4. What should I spend it on, @howard?)

Also, there is so much choice. Why stick to something if there is something else, potentially better? The DAI market is so very crowded…

I only adapt to something if there is no other way - otherwise things need to adapt to me (hence: modding)

And the good thing (as always): publically documenting my mistakes will make life easier for people that read about it. So it’s a win-win for everybody…

[Vader]

My DAI is Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. Oniy used it a little so far, but seems to do what I need for now - getting the bass into a DAW.

Now I just need to get some more songs ready to record…

[AndreaJayne]

I just use a £40 Sonicake thing. does all I need. There is a mic input too, but best to stay away from that

[itsratso]

today was spend money day on Amazon. bought a digital camera but also… well on the latest sbl video Shaz and Ian do a recording your bass breakdown, and this is the DAI that Shaz uses. I didn’t need this. but it’s tiny, sounds great, and can be bus powered by a USB cable from your phone. so by just grabbing this, a cable and some headphones you have a pretty killer mobile practice solution. and oh yes, it’s like SIXTYISH DOLLARS on azon.

https://tinyurl.com/u3cfumfd

[Paul]

These days I just roll with a Rode AI-1 USB audio interface. Bought it (used) for 50 euros. Works for me

[PaulH]

I’d been using an iRig HD from IK with Amplitube, but I recently switched to a PC with an ARM processor, and the drivers for those don’t support ARM yet. Sigh.

[Whying_Dutchman]

@PaulH

PC with an ARM processor

@TheMaartian got a FocusRite, cause it support ARM native.
Maybe he’ll share his experience?

What's Your DAI (Digital Audio Interface)?

I have owned two PreSonus and one Tascam interfaces in the past. I’m currently using an RME Fireface UCX II on my main DAW (very expensive, but super solid multi-client ASIO driver), but for my new secondary DAW (a Microsoft Surface Pro 11 Elite X), I bought a Focusrite 4th gen 4i4 since it has native Snapdragon ARM drivers. I’m pairing it with Bitwig v5.3 beta 5 since it is also available as a native ARM version. The mixer and driver software that come with the Focusrite look good from a newbi…

[Whying_Dutchman]

Got the PreSonus Quantum ES4 … and it looks like a keeper!
(@joergkutter & @howard - don’t bet on it yet :-))

Today, I tested with a friend who can sing and plays bass & guitar really great. He brought his FocusRite Scarlet 1616 (4th generation) and I still had the SSL 12 here.

He had also a microphone for testing with him … don’t know what, didn’t care! Something with Shure … SM? MS?

Findings:

• it’s beautiful! VERY beautiful!
• as expected you can control EVERYTHING from PC … but surprisingly, also from a mobile device (wireless!), which came in quite handy as a 2nd screen (picture below).
• Microphone “quality” (whatever that is) seems to be much better than both the SSL 12 and the FocusRite Scarlet 1616.
• Instr in was better than the Focusrite and on par with the SSL, in my opinion - and the other way around in his opinion. In any case it was great!
• We had no ASIO issues whatsover, but I have to test this a little more. My expensive notebook s#cks in that respect … in contrast to my cheap travel notebook.
• There is an Auto Gain function, which I found child’s play initially. But in fact it’s great!

He is selling his FocusRite now and gets a ES4 (maybe a HD2, cause he wants his stuff to be better than mine).

Pic: Notebook, Tablet, ES4

[howard]

@Whying_Dutchman

Microphone “quality” (whatever that is) seems to be much better than both the SSL 12 and the FocusRite Scarlet 1616.

This is extremely unlikely (in both cases).

@Whying_Dutchman

Instr in was better than the Focusrite and on par with the SSL, in my opinion - and the other way around in his opinion. In any case it was great!

This is also unlikely. Let’s check.

ES4 noise floor (EIN): -129dB
Dynamic range: 113dB

SSL2 (and others) noise floor: -130.5 dbU
Dynamic Range: 112dB

Focusrite 1616 noise floor: -127dbU
Dynamic Range: 122dB

Three comments:

• Out of all of these, the SSL has the lowest noise mic preamps and the Focusrite the best dynamic range; the ES4 wins neither.
• There is absolutely no way you guys would have noticed any qualitative difference at all with those specs, without scopes and a reference room
• Any perceived difference you heard was almost assuredly due to you guys misusing the devices in minor ways, which all have lots of ways to suboptimally use (4k mode on the SSL, AIR mode on the Focusrite, wrong gain on each, etc)

All of these look like outstanding interfaces to me.

[Whying_Dutchman]

@howard

This is extremely unlikely (in both cases).

I’m just repeating what the “Mic” guy said. I cannot judge it. But he makes music professionally since beginning of the 80s and knows what he’s doing…

So, you reallly trust the specs that manufaturers give you?
And the noise floor difference of -129db and -130.5 dB can be heared?

We did not use any effects, let alone AIR or 4K.

I learned that values like noise floor and dynamic range don’t say anything about the tonal characteristics of DAI, especially if they are manufaturer specs.
We listened through a very good Headphone, and there must be a good reason, why he prefers this one over the FocusRite, otherwise he wouldn’t get rid of it.
I guess, he’ll get the HD2 though…

Anyways, I don’t want to sell this one to you, so all good.
And I already found a bug … let’s see what PreSonus says…

[howard]

@Whying_Dutchman

I’m just repeating what the “Mic” guy said. I cannot judge it. But he makes music professionally since beginning of the 80s and knows what he’s doing…

Argument from authority

@Whying_Dutchman

So, you reallly trust the specs that manufaturers give you?

No I usually check Julian’s testing actually, but from memory he had similar results. (and I picked the SSL based on them originally.)

@Whying_Dutchman

And the noise floor difference of -129db and -130.5 dB can be heared?

No, that’s what I am saying. There’s no way you guys heard any difference based on the inherent quality of the preamps.

Any differences you heard were caused by other factors, most likely the way you were using them.

[Barney]

@Whying_Dutchman

• Microphone “quality” (whatever that is) seems to be much better than both the SSL 12 and the FocusRite Scarlet 1616.
• Instr in was better than the Focusrite and on par with the SSL

[howard]

@Barney

IMG_86411025×1025 185 KB

Yeah, or, see also:

Confirmation bias

[itsratso]

@howard

Any differences you heard were caused by other factors

most likely either A. decibel levels were not matched. and i don’t mean by ear, they need to be matched with a db meter. even slight differences will make a big difference in what you prefer. also B. bias. you already said that one machine looked better than the other. perception bias is a powerful thing, which is why we have blind A/B testing. i am not beating up on anyone here, but this is the whole entire basis of why “audiophiles” get completely ripped off on a regular basis buying things that they are convinced are audibly superior, when it can be shown with measurements that they aren’t. for the record almost ANY piece of gear like this, from mega cheap to mega expensive will most likely measure well into the inaudible range.

[howard]

Yep, well put

[TheMaartian]

@Whying_Dutchman

@PaulH

PC with an ARM processor

@TheMaartian got a FocusRite, cause it support ARM native.
Maybe he’ll share his experience?

That’s my task for today. I finally received the U.S. English keyboard for the Surface Pro 11 yesterday. I had to order it separately. After 50+ years typing on a QWERTY keyboard, there is NO chance I’m going to try converting to a French AZERTY layout. I tried one once. I couldn’t even hunt-and-peck it.

So, today, I’m going to install the Snapdragon ARM versions of the Scarlett 4i4 driver, Bitwig, Google Chrome and the PIA (Private Internet Access) VPN on my Elite X Surface Pro. I’m also going to install the x86 64-bit version of Amplitube 5 Max. Wish me luck!

[Whying_Dutchman]

@TheMaartian

Wish me luck!

Good luck!
Would be quite interested in the result - also what you think in general about the notebook. Performance? Stamina?
I just learned that you can non-Windows store software?

@TheMaartian

Amplitube 5 Max

Amplitube May is my favourite of the similar packages BIAS F/X, Amplitube and TH-U.

The only thing I don’t like with those is that you have to remain “within” their plugin, and canot use the included components indivually and mixed with other pluigins (from other vendors).

[Whying_Dutchman]

@itsratso

you already said that one machine looked better than the other. perception bias is a powerful thing

Now here comes the funny thing: I preferred my Zoom AMS-24 very much to my Motu M4 in terms of audio quality and ASIO stability.
The Zoom is arguably an ugly little plastic box, while the Motu M4 is nicely designed and has a very cool display.
It was like preferring a Trabbi to an Aston Martin!

I found the SSL 12 also not very nice looking, compared to the M4 (just like @TheMaartian, I’m usually not a fan of top-mounted UIs - you can’t stack it and it looks usually old fashioned).

I sent the Motu M4 back and kept the SSL 12.

Now I find the ES4 really more beautiful that the other ones … but wouldn’t have kept it if I had the use the top loading UI … the simple fact that I don’t have to use the hardware at all to control it, makes up for it.

[Whying_Dutchman]

@howard

No I usually check Julian’s testing actually, but from memory he had similar results.

But Julian Krause neither tested the ES4 (he tested the ES2), nor the SSL 12 (he tested the SSL2, both MK1 and MK2) nor the FocusRite Scarlet 1616 4th generation (he tested the 414 4th).

By the way, I find the " Argument from authority" statement quite funny, as you have used it (“Appeal to Authority Fallacy”) in exactly the opposite fashion when we discussed pickups: Should I shoot my new bass? (Modding the Harley Benton MV-4MSB) - #860 by howard

The issue with using “Argument from authority” in reasoning is, that you just need to apply an authority to a statement you don’t agree with to make it work. In the pickup discussion you doubted the Gitarre&Bass article by Joris Henke (engineer). But in this case you prefer Julian Krause (photographer), who arguably does the same as Joris.
It is a good technique in discussions though, and I might use it in a professional context

So, I have rewatched the video and made screenshots of the tables, so others here can use it for their quest for audio interfaces:

True, the ES4 does not win anything head&shoulders with those measurements. In this way it supports what you say!
Maybe this is also due to Julian’s issue with RF interference and older firmwares?
I usually need to work hard to remove RFI, but had no issue, neither with my power supply (which had some RFI issues before, cause of the wireless charging option), nor the (digital) Class D amp the DAI is standing on.

Also I discussed it with my friend, and he says you are partially right. There are quantitative measures … and qualitative.
While some measures might be great, they also might not be as relevant in the ANALOG components, that usually can change the character of the audio significantly. Analog components will always have their own “personality”…
Also, measurements can change with firmware updates (DSP) and the ES2 and ES4 might have diffenent tonal properties cause of mainboard layout. The SSL 12 can neither be compared to a SSL2 Mk1 (cause it’s 32 bit) , nor the SSL2 MK2 (cause this has newer hardware).

You can see the qualitative arguments are highly subjective from our discussion, which interface is better for instr in. Here we had different opinions.

Bottom line - and here we agree - this is a great interface (for now)!

As soon as PreSonus has solved the bug AND I have not found any ASIO issues (probably due to my f#cking expenisive notebook), I will decide.

But it’s looking good, especially cause of the option to control the DAI via my tablet wirelessly, somit sits next to my notebook, running the DAW.

My friend will get his HD2 (of course it had to be better than mine ) tomorrow …

[howard]

These are all fantastic interfaces, all I am saying is that while I am sure you heard some qualitative difference, it is vanishingly unlikely that it was due to preamp quality differences between them, because at those noise and dynamic range magnitudes the difference in quality with respect to noise and distortion will be imperceptible.