Will check it out, thanks! But, it looks a bit different than most others on my “list” so far - no amp modeling, for instance…
Anyway, will dive more into it later!
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Yeah, I figured IR loading would work for amp modeling, but maybe not. What is the difference. I understand the IR files, and I sort of thought the Amp modeling worked on the same principles, along the same lines. but if it is not, then yeah, you probably don’t want that.
IR are static mappings. A given input signal will produce a specific output signal.
Amps aren’t like that. You can tweak amps. Basically - if something is dynamic, for example has knobs where you can change the parameters, etc, it can’t be modeled well entirely with just an IR.
Amps are dynamic. For example, to properly simulate an amp in a DAW, you need a plugin like a VST. It’s basically a computer program, not just a simple mapping. This VST may (or may not) use one or more IR internally - it’s up to how the VST is coded - but it is more than just an IR.
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So IR alone are enough for Cab simulation, but are not enough, alone for amp modeling? Is this the correct way to look at it?
and
A VST can use multiple IR files with other types of files to model the Amp?
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Thanks for clearing that up, Howard! So, what is the output of an amp profiler (such as the Kemper and the Mooer has one too)? Is it a set of IRs that work together to simulate a more dynamic behavior?? Or something else entirely?
Ah, was typing this as @T_dub reply came through…
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Great minds…
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Cab sims load IR to simulate the cab, yes, Cab sims may also contain code to do more - allow mic position changes, etc; but the latest ones primarily work by loading an IR file and using its sonic mapping.
An amp sim (VST in a DAW, or otherwise implemented, like the software in a multieffects box, etc) is a lot more than just an IR convolver. The amp may be modeled in many ways; I don’t know what the likelyhood of using an IR for this would be, but I suspect low. The reason I suspect it is low is that an IR would really only capture the tonal mapping for a single amp setting. So you might be able to use one to capture some general qualities but you would still need to implement the rest of the amp sim on top of it.
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So, the multi effects units, or the IR loaders, like the Joyo Cab Box for example. If they have amp modeling, it is a pre loaded item, so for instance, it would say 12 amp models loaded. So those would be pre selected Amp models that the unit is capable to simulate.
AND
when it says IR loader, and says, has 40 slots to load IR files.
then what it is saying is that you can use those 40 slots to hold IR files that you could select to use as the Cab for the pre loaded amp models.
SO
what it isn’t telling you (and I don’t mean false advertising, just not fully explained) is that those files are not taking place of, or being used for the amp model, it is only being added to the amp model as a cab.
Again, is this correct way to think about. it is all news to me, thanks for the breakdown so I can more fully understand it.
I thought, OK, I get what IR files are and how to use them, I am good.
Now, I only know what they are, but realize I don’t FULLY understand how and where they are used.
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Correct, cab sims/IR convolvers (and the IR files they load) do not replace amp sims. They complement them. They simulate the speaker cabs.
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So, OUTSIDE of DAW’s, are there things like Multi boxes, or stomp boxes that are Amp Modelers that are capable to take user loaded IR files, and or other files to do amp modeling? Is this a thing? is is something that will be in future generations? or is it going to be limited to computers and DAW’s
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In general IR files are used for cab sims.
I have never used an amp sim that utilized IR files, unless it was hidden internally.
LOTS of amp sims exist, both in DAWs and in effects. None of them that I am aware of use IR files. I obviously have not used them all, and conceivably someone might use a static mapping like an IR internally in an amp sim, but I’m not aware of it. I almost regret saying it could be conceivably done that way - I bet it never is, but I don’t know for sure.
I’ve also never written a software amp sim; though I have written some software signal processing before, I’m not an expert on programming amp sims.
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Yes, I think so, but I wanted to get @howard’s attention and input with my earlier post, but I guess it got lost in the recent flurry…
Anyway, I think a profiler (like the Kemper) “learns” (for lack of a better word) how a specific amp sounds and turns that into some kind of software profile/map. Also, I think the intention is to have those freely shared by users, such that, if you have an SVT and profile it, I can then use it on my Kemper (or similar device) and if I have a GK and profile it, you can then use it on your Kemper etc.
Sounds awesome… if true
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for the Line 6 technology, it’s the actual amp circuitry that is modeled, which includes the reactions of the pots and everything. for example on an old tube amp with passive EQ (like a Fender Bassman) if you turn the bass pot, it will not only change the bass frequency quantity but change a lot of other things : other frequencies, phase, saturation, compression … everything is interactive and the Like 6 modeling include that. that’s not at all what an IR can do.
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Yeah I understand that full circuit sims were the popular way to go for several types of effects. Didn’t know for sure for amps but it makes sense.
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Yes, and then I also wonder, the NU>X Solid Studio box that does modeling and cab simulations, it states that you can record IR files with it. you CAN export them, but if you create your own IR files, you are Mic’n a CAB, and even tho it is coming from an AMP, is that a proper AMP IR file, or would it only be a CAB IR file?
OK, this one says it is I.R. and Power Amp Simulator, so it is somewhat separating the two
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Right. Basically, it’s best to stop thinking of IR files in terms of amp sims at all - they are totally separate things. I didn’t mean to confuse the issue above - I was just trying to say that even if an amp sim had a specific use for a tonal mapping like an IR internally, it would still need a lot more code than just that to be able to properly simulate an amp.
IR file: thing loaded by a cab sim. Not especially high tech in itself, it’s just a mapping of signal input vs sound output for a given speaker cab. But it enables writing nice, flexible cab sims that can load many different cabs, instead of being hardcoded to just a few.
Edited the above post to hopefully clarify and not leave a landmine for future readers.
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So, this unit saying you can record IR files. How realistic is this feature, and do you think every Tom, Dick and Harry with a combo amp, a mic and this unit could make actual working, IR files that would sound realistic and be any good? Or is this a selling gimik. Yes it works, yes its possible, but you would really need studio setting conditions or better capturing equipment (mic’s and what not) to make this a feasible option?
Or do you think it could be a cool feature?
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No idea! It depends on what it is letting you record and how it does it. Sounds like it might let you record your own speaker cabs and rooms to recreate their sound in that space? Not sure.
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So, here is a bit background I got off a Sweetwater page:
(starts here)
The Kemper Profiling Amp (KPA) takes sonic snapshots (or profiles) of any amp and speaker combination as heard through a microphone or DI — not only your own amps, but those of a growing community of users and artists as well. This makes the KPA a formidable recording tool and an easy-traveling, self-contained live performance solution. Here are some of Sweetwater’s top reasons for staking your claim in the Kemper ecosystem.
What Is Profiling?
Curious how the Kemper so faithfully captures the tone and response of your favorite amps? Designer Christoph Kemper is mum on the process, but here’s how it works: the KPA sends a series of test tones into an amp and receives them via a miked speaker cab or line input. With this, the Kemper is able to create an accurate sonic profile of the amp’s dynamics and drive characteristics. Gain, level, EQ, and advanced settings (compression, picking clarity) at the time of profiling remain fluid and, in moderate degrees, do a convincing job of approximating the amp’s interactive controls. What’s even crazier, Kemper’s CabDriver algorithm is able to remove the miked cabinet from the signal for use with a live speaker cab or other speaker impulse responses. Whatever is happening behind the scenes of the profiling process, Christoph and the Kemper amps have done a commendable job digitizing and preserving our cherished amps for a new generation to enjoy.
(ends)
And maybe this bit as well:
(starts)
The Kemper isn’t only capable of profiling your own personal amps. With the Rig Exchange app, you’ve got access to thousands of free profiles captured from users’ own amps, pedals, and outboard gear. You can search for “Mesa” or “brown sound” or by amp make (“Orange”) or model (“Silver Jubilee”) if you know exactly what you’re after. And if you’re looking for artist inspiration, a quick search for “U2” or “EVH” will usually get you where you need to go.
Not only that, but there is a massive and growing market for premium third-party paid profiles. Most major amp profilers offer sampler packs to let you test the waters before taking the plunge. Tone Junkie, Selah Sounds, and The Amp Factory offer generous free packs that will give you a taste of pretty well everything within their collections. Brian Carl Music and Rhett Shull are first stops for vintage flavors. And for higher gain, Top Jimi is an absolute wizard; his Van Halen Brown Sound Pack is gobsmackingly good. Many users within the Kemper community also swear by the Michael Britt profiles for modern rock.
(ends)
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That actually sounds a lot like it is making an IR mapping. So maybe they have made an amp sim that models sort of generic amp circuitry but also can load an IR to fine tune tonal character.
I honestly don’t know. But an amp sim needs to be a whole lot more than just an IR convolver.
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