Why i hate/ don't get music theory

“I play with children so that I can learn from them.” ― Shinichi Suzuki

It has always been my thinking that children learn many things easily not because of some special innate ability but because of their methods. Children have problems they need to solve, they learn by conducting experiments and observing the results. They don’t care about rules or why things happen, only that they do. :slight_smile: I’ve always approached learning in a similar fashion. If you want to learn how something works you play with it, you take it apart, you see what it’s made of… you don’t look in a book :slight_smile: If you approach learning that way, you can learn anything and solve virtually any problem :slight_smile:

PS. do not try to take women apart, they do not like that.

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Honestly if you want any one single thing to take away that is practical and is easy to grasp:

Understanding “stacking thirds” to make some different chords will go a long long way.

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On my flights this past week I was reading through * Bass Theory: The Electric Bass Guitar Player’s Guide to Music Theory by John C. Goodman and it looks pretty good so far!

Also, if you have Kindle Unlimited, the book is on there for “free”.

I have Ariane Cap’s book, I don’t really like it that much but I don’t really like her teaching style either.

For a pure theory reference book, Rick Beato’s book is very good.

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I love Dan Hawkins, I enjoy his teaching style and the pace that he works through things.

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Thanks for the feedback. I have looked at it, too, and it’s nicely done. I don’t have a Kindle, but I might need to rectify that situation.

I have looked at a lot of Cap’s videos, but I’m with you: her teaching style doesn’t hit me.

Please post a longer review of the John C. Goodman book when you get further into it.

Oh, and I like Dan Hawkins as well.

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I’ve don’t a lot of music “stuff” over the years and I think that for most people, ear training is probably the most difficult skill to acquire.

My background is in computer programming and mechanical engineering so I’m pretty technical but I also have a good artistic side. A little while after I started teaching photography at a local club we were out on a photo walk and someone voiced surprise that my composition and use of colour and other elements was very good, as if they expected that someone with so much technical knowledge couldn’t also be artistic :smiley:

Rules and definitions are good, they help you understand and communicate things but they do not necessarily help you acquire a proficient use of those skills… the best way to acquire a skill is to find a problem that requires that you use the skills to solve it. If you want to learn theory, do something the requires you to use the theory. Analyze musical pieces, write melodies over chord progressions, learn to improvise… there are lots of good tools available to do those things.

Kindle is available on almost every platform, I use it mostly on my phone and Samsung tablet. The Paperwhite r readers are pretty nice though! Kindle unlimited lets you take out 20 books at a time now (up from 10 books previously) which is really nice. Is it worth $10/mo to me? I probably don’t use it enough but it’s really handy when I need some reference books for something :slight_smile:

Guess I’ll have to keep reading it now… I keep telling people they need a problem to solve, I guess this is it :slight_smile: I’m also working through the book “300 progressive sight reading exercises for bass guitar” right now and reading “Nurtured by Love” as well :slight_smile:

I think he’s pretty under rated, along with Rich Brown.

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I dig Rich Brown. Watching his videos make me feel like I’m hanging out with a very knowledgeable buddy. :guitar:

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Hi Old Noob: I’m right there with ya, music theory just doesn’t make any sense to me either. Does that stop us from playing and having fun? Nope. You might find this funny but did you know Glen Campbell, arguably one of the greatest guitar players to ever live, didn’t know how to read music? This is true for several famous musicians. I hope you don’t get discouraged, just pick up your ax and play. I don’t think I’ve ever been sent packing because I couldn’t read music. If you know when to pluck the note and what note to pluck there’s a place for you. Good players will help you develop so don’t be afraid to strap up and plug in. Having fun is the name of the game.

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“The basics of music theory are not complicated or difficult to understand. Rather than think of it as music theory, think of it as music knowledge, knowledge of how music works, learning the mechanics of music the same way an automotive mechanic learns how a car engine works.”

Goodman, John C… Bass Theory: The Electric Bass Guitar Player’s Guide to Music Theory (p. 11). Gneiss Press. Kindle Edition.

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132 replies discussing what that chord is named :laughing:

I said “it depends what your bass player plays” :joy:

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This is why I think whoever invented suspended chords might be the biggest troll in music history. “I’m gonna mess with everyone by changing the third to a second or fourth.” And thus a whole lot of naming confusion began.

They are often a lot nicer to play though. At least on guitar.

They were a rank amateur compared to the person who named 7th chords :joy:

Well, I just read another 90 pages; I have a headache (not kidding) and I think I may have permanently lost my sense of humour… the pain started at the base of my skull which I think may be my autonomic nervous system trying to prevent me from proceeding any further. :joy: :joy: :joy:

For anyone who is new to music theory, I suggest you stop at about page 100 and come back in a year or five. (mostly not kidding) :slight_smile:

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Oh those are good too. “Of course we should use a minor seventh with a major triad. It’s so obvious!”

And the classic, the Minor Major Seventh chord. Which is not the chord I just described, of course.

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So I have kind of a fundamental question for @Old_WannaBe and others having a hard time understanding music theory: Why are you learning music theory?

There’s a smallish amount of theory that is absolutely critical to know eventually. Josh covers a lot of that in the course, actually. Probably almost all of it. Beyond that, there’s a really large amount of rather esoteric music theory that is really only useful for a few things, like:

  • You want to analyze music to deeply understand it and why the artist made certain choices
  • You want to compose your own music
  • You want to understand why some parts of music are constructed like they are

In other words, It’s useful to know to solve specific problems. When not applied to one of those (or similar specific goals/problems), music theory is actually rather useless knowledge.

What I am getting at here is that if you are doing something that requires a bit more theory than you have to either understand it or produce the results you want with it, then studying some theory around it to apply it to that task is a great plan.

But if you aren’t going to apply it to anything then there’s a lot of stuff that you are going to have a hard time with until you have a tangible thing to apply it to. A lot of music theory is around context, and that context is usually about how something sounds.

The thing @sshoihet and I were just discussing is a good real-world example here - seventh chords. When initially learning theory, you get to understand the major scale, minor scale, and chord progressions in them - with the chord nearly always used being the major or minor triad. All notes in the scale. You’ll also learn power chords - just the root and the fifth, denoted with a 5, like C5 for the C power chord (always C and G, regardless of if you are in Cmaj or Cm).

So eventually you learn about seventh chords. These are written as a superscipted 7, like C7 (if that 7 were superscripted). You would probably think that these are a major triad with the 7th added, like C, E, G, B. That’s not correct, though; C, E, G ,B is the C Major 7th chord, notated CM7. The default seventh chord is not the major 7th chord; it’s the dominant seventh, and so the C7 chord is C, E, G, and Bb. Now, B flat is not in the C major scale. If you’re like me, this will break your brain. There’s two reasons this is why this is the case:

  • It sounds good and is more musically useful than the Major 7th for building tension before resolving
  • A common way chords are actually constructed is by stacking thirds, and once you understand stacked thirds as the basis for most chords, a whole lot of stuff makes more sense

In this case, the bit of music theory there (stacking thirds to make chords) was sort of an interesting fact for me on its own, but when used to understand a huge WTF like “why is there a B Flat in this otherwise C major scale chord?” it becomes super useful to learn - “so a dominant 7th chord is a major triad (a major third plus a minor third) plus another minor third? Got it.”

But until then (or one of its other similar usages), it was just a kind of esoteric bit of theory for me.

So this is all a rather long post to get to the point I wanted to make: I think you’ll get a lot more out of some music theory if it is stuff you are learning specifically to apply to something you are having a tough time understanding. And conversely, if you don’t have a thing to apply it to, there’s a lot that is going to be really mindbending until you try and map it to a real-world problem.

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I agree with most of Howard’s points (and there are some very good points in here).

However,

What makes the dom 7 chord the “default” 7th chord? Because it has the “simplest” symbol??

The “easiest” explanation really is that C7 is not any of the seventh chords of the C major scale. C7 “belongs” to the F major scale, where it is the seventh chord over the fifth scale degree. (All V7 chords are dom chords).

:wink:

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Convention? Common usage/frequency of usage? Going by guitar charts anyway I see it a lot more than the Cmaj7. But good question - I have no idea why it was decided to make the dominant seventh the one used when notating unadorned 7th chords.

Looking it up, it does indeed seem to be by frequency of usage :man_shrugging:

You’re right of course, in that Cmaj is the dominant key of the F major scale and C7 is a seventh chord built starting from C using notes from Fmaj. But while that is the accurate explanation, unless you initially already know that C7 is the C dominant 7th (and for that matter, what a dominant is), you ain’t gonna get there :rofl:

Meanwhile, just thinking about it in terms of stacking thirds, you end up with quite an acceptable and practical path to getting it.

But of course, “It’s not actually in the scale you think it is…” is a good path to take too :slight_smile:

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Yeah, that is probably because blues, rock and funk are full of them, and why the mixolydian mode might be the most important one to know/learn (if any…)

But, most of the time, also the path where most people already stop listening after this introductory sentence :rofl:

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What I would be more interested in is the history of the development of the entire thing.
Who, where, what, why & all the ‘oh crap, what do we do about this?’ moments, most likely followed by some sort of ‘meh, just do this, no one is ever really gonna care about this anyway, since you don’t really need it’.
I imagine it mirrors any language development, english esp.

The history however much rooted in fact, needs to not be heavy itself, more of an Alton Brown approach to why x is x, y is y, and why z isn’t always z.
I would read that cover to cover.

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