@DaveT we 100% agree with each other - I’m not sure what you’re arguing?
The evidence show that vaccines work - there isn’t evidence to support boosters at this time because vaccine induced protection against severe outcomes (hospitalization and death) is still very high even if antibody titers are lower - and the vaccines are still working against new/evolved strains of COVID even though they were developed using much older strains because the immune system is a lot more than antibodies and the humoral immune response is working exactly like it should.
You’re correct in saying that every single vaccine on the planet necessarily creates evolutionary pressure/selection to a strain that evades the vaccine - but the evidence shows that isn’t happening yet. It might eventually - but just because it looks like it should doesn’t mean it has happened - and the evidence indicates it hasn’t.
The Lancet study is 2 days old - looking at 18 different reference studies and not just the Israel study - and it’s 18 authors had their work peer reviewed. The Israel study that has so many people up-in-arms has NOT gone through peer review. It’s still a pre-publish at Medrxiv. Even the link you attached to the Israel study indicates it’s not peer reviewed. Docs f’ing HATE these pre-publication sites - so much unnecessary drama!
Of course, docs aren’t scientists. As well they shouldn’t be. The thought of my GP deciding to try something on me for shits and giggles and unsatiated curiosity gives me the willies.
I hope this passes soon @EddieJones and you and your wife make a full recovery.
I know of a few people who became infected even though fully vaccinated, two of whom became seriously ill but recovered well after a few weeks.
However, one other that I know of developed the symptoms you describe and they’ve persisted even though they now test negative. That sounds absolutely horrendous so sincere wishes for a full recovery.
Yes but why is it that some countries like Taiwan, Vietnam and even Mongolia (a large country sharing a land border with China) we’re having single digit infection rates before the vaccine was available? Because masking, distancing, tracking and tracing. Why couldn’t western countries do this?
I’m a hospital worker, and if you’ve not been vaccinated, you have no business on an OB ward putting your patients at risk. One of my best friends is an anti-vaxer and I respect his choice, but he doesn’t work direct with patients.
I think so too… I don’t really agree though. It’s true that this topic has become less about @EddieJones and more about Covid and vaccines in general, but I don’t see a whole lot of politics here, or shit storms for that matter. What I do see is heated, but polite discussion, and people backing their statements with facts and data, with respect for each other’s points of view. All of that is pretty rare these days.
Culture… People in, for instance, South East Asia are used to sacrificing (some of) their personal interests to the common good. I think we, Westerners, could maybe think a little less about what our rights are, and a little more about whether we actually have to exercise them all the time.
I listened to an interesting podcast by some anthropologists I know about Covid in Vietnam. They talked about a culture of care for the other. From what I understood, this is not even considered so much a sacrifice. More like the common good is in one’s personal interest. Broadly speaking.
Something to consider with hospital workers is there’s a handful of immunizations we have to stay current on. We have to get an annual flu shot. Every 5 years you get a Tetanus shot. This is just another one. Been that way for the 40 years I’ve been in the business.
We absolutely agree on the part that’s most important, taking an active interest in critical thinking while navigating a very complex changing series of events. As long as everyone keeps investigating and pays attention, beneficial courses of action can be determined.
Maybe I’m not arguing so much as lamenting that the process of research and peer review is necessary to find the answer and it also is not keeping pace with the rate at which a solution needs to be produced. Why could the Israel study not be peer reviewed by now? It tremendously informs next steps if well produced. If find it unfortunate that a peer reviewed paper also contains statements that technically have a valid footnote from the past, but are currently mathematically irrational.
I agree we that we don’t technically know if the vaccine has applied selection pressure because all the variants we see in abundance existed prior to vaccine deployment. It will continue to be extremely difficult to prove if the vaccine evasions were random or pressured.
What I don’t appreciate in this article, peer reviewed or not, is the blaming and shaming of the unvaccinated as solely responsible for circulation when clearly we have significant quantities of breakthrough cases. A solution to this is going to require addressing the facts and ignoring some of the facts won’t result in success. 100% vaccination won’t control this. We need to be smarter than that. I think language in papers like this is distracting to problem solving and puts too much weight on a red herring.
And yes, I think we both agree and we are both trying ride the swirl and figure out which direction it’s turning. If we seem to disagree I’m pretty sure it’s only because we are momentarily facing different directions. And I think that really in many ways describes others as well. People are doing the best they can with this information from the angle they see it. Biased peer reviewed papers aren’t helping. Lunatic claims with no basis aren’t helping. Removal of information by people who think they know better when they don’t isn’t helping. Over-reactionary fear to groups who would take advantage and need to be held in check isn’t helping.
Anyway, I appreciate all critical thinkers. That element is what keeps the whole system balanced.
I agree that we have to be super careful about opening doors to policies that appear useful, even necessary, in one situation and can be used and abused for all kinds of other things later. I’m assuming though, that these are often introduced in a more subtle way and are harder to understand. So for example, while many people are up in arms about wearing masks or not, data protection laws might be loosened and only a few care.
This has been a remarkably civil discussion. Is this the internet? It doesn’t seem like it could be… no personal attacks, no flaming, no trolling. It’s refreshing. Thank you Bass Buzzers!
Living up to our reputation! Just substitute “think critically” with “perform”.
When it comes to masks I don’t see the case you’re making. They can mandate I wear shirt, pants, and shoes in public places. They mandate seatbelts and helmets on bikes, motorcycles, and other forms of transportation.
I don’t see masks as losing another right. I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen a case made for it.
